Doubting Enlightenment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Laurens
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Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Laurens »

Hello all,

When it comes to it we essentially have to take other people's word on enlightenment. There is no evidence that we are pursuing something real.

Is there really such a thing as enlightenment?

Why do you believe that?

**DISCLAIMER!! I personally am not having such grave doubts myself, but I thought I would post the question, to see if it ends up with any interesting discussions**
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
rowyourboat
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by rowyourboat »

I believe it because I see progress in that direction in my own mind
With Metta

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DNS
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by DNS »

Like RYB says, progress in myself. But also the Tipitaka, teachings of the Buddha. The spirit and the letter of the teachings show the stamp of one great genius. I don't think any other scholar at that time or after him could have produced such profound teachings without being fully enlightened. Scholarly knowledge, especially at that time could not have produced such genius.
Laurens
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Laurens »

rowyourboat wrote:I believe it because I see progress in that direction in my own mind
How do you define that progress? Against what is it measured?

(Apologies, I am going to assume the role of a relentless questioner for the sake of this topic)
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Goofaholix
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Goofaholix »

Laurens wrote: Is there really such a thing as enlightenment?

Why do you believe that?
Do you need to believe that?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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DNS
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by DNS »

Laurens wrote: How do you define that progress? Against what is it measured?
(hope it's okay to answer since I agreed with RYB)

One way could be based on evidence of going from right to left in regard to:

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Laurens
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Laurens »

Good answers so far :)

You mention the Brahma-vihara, does that equate to enlightenment? Or can one have those qualities and be unenlightened?

How does one tell between the near-enemies and the Brahma-vihara? Is is plausable that one could delude oneself into thinking that the near-enemies are the real thing?
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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retrofuturist
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Laurens,
Laurens wrote:When it comes to it we essentially have to take other people's word on enlightenment. There is no evidence that we are pursuing something real.

Is there really such a thing as enlightenment?

Why do you believe that?
At any moment when there is suffering, there is the presence of greed, aversion &/or delusion.

There are times when these three factors are not present, and accordingly, at those times, there is no suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Guy
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Guy »

Laurens wrote:Is there really such a thing as enlightenment?
There is no such "thing" as enlightenment. There is nothing worth clinging to.
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Chula
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Chula »

I think this sutta answers your question:

MN 27: Cūḷahatthipadopama Sutta - The Shorter Discourse on the Elephant Footprint Simile
"This, too, is called a footprint of the Tathagata, a scratch mark of the Tathagata, a tusk slash of the Tathagata, but a disciple of the noble ones would not yet come to the conclusion, 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Until we actually attain Arahantship, we only get footprints and scratch marks alluding to the elephant (the Buddha's Awakening). This is why saddhā (conviction) is essential for progress in the practice.
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by pt1 »

Laurens wrote:Hello all,

When it comes to it we essentially have to take other people's word on enlightenment. There is no evidence that we are pursuing something real.

Is there really such a thing as enlightenment?

Why do you believe that?

**DISCLAIMER!! I personally am not having such grave doubts myself, but I thought I would post the question, to see if it ends up with any interesting discussions**
On the subject of doubt - might be useful to remember that doubt is just another akusala dhamma that arises based on conditions and ceases when these conditions change. As such, it bears the characteristic of anatta, meaning that its arising and ceasing are fully impersonal. So, it will keep happening as long as akusala tendencies are not eradicated (in particular, that of vicikiccha - skeptical doubt, eradicated at stream-entry), whenever the conditions are right for it to arise/cease. Believing on the other hand, (provided it's not just attachment in disguise) as a kusala dhamma (saddha, also translated as confidence) arises I think only in moments when the right view (wisdom) is present.
retrofuturist wrote: At any moment when there is suffering, there is the presence of greed, aversion &/or delusion.

There are times when these three factors are not present, and accordingly, at those times, there is no suffering.
This sounds very much like the abhidhamma definition of kusala/akusala cittas:
-when a citta arises with the roots greed, aversion and/or delusion - it is akusala,
-when a citta arises without these roots (so with roots non-greed, non-aversion and non-delusion) it is kusala.

However, I'm not sure what you mean by saying that there is no suffering when kusala cittas arise? I.e. I was under the impression that arising of all conditioned dhammas is dukkha by definition because they are conditioned. So even the arising of wisdom, or metta for that matter, is dukkha. So, in terms of the first noble truth, dukkha would have to do with all conditioned dhammas, kusala or akusala.

Best wishes
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Dan74 »

Since defilements are dependently arisen, when conditions that give rise to them end, so do the defilements. I think most of us here have seen this work to some extent in our lives, so why could it not work till its completion?

In the end it's down to ignorance. Once we see into the whole charade, the house of cards that is the notion of the self that gains and loses, collapses and with it the rest of the chain.

I'm convinced. The rest is up to us - do we really want to? To me, that's the $1mil question rather that the existence or possibility of enlightenment.

It's sort of like a smoker asking is it possible to give up smoking. Is it possible to give up all attachment?

Yes, if you really mean it.

_/|\_
Last edited by Dan74 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
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Guy
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by Guy »

Dan74 wrote: I'm convinced. The rest is up to us - do we really want to? To me, that's the $1mil question rather that the existence or possibility of enlightenment.

It's sort of like a smoker asking is it possible to give up smoking. Is it possible to give up all attachment?

Yes, if you really mean it.

_/|\_
Good simile! :thumbsup:
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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retrofuturist
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings pt1,
pt1 wrote:This sounds very much like the abhidhamma definition of kusala/akusala cittas:
Yes, it is a key component of the Abhidhamma theory but "the roots of good and evil" as they're also known, also frequently found in the suttas.
pt1 wrote:However, I'm not sure what you mean by saying that there is no suffering when kusala cittas arise?
Well, I can't really comment, as I'm not an Abhidhamma expert.
pt1 wrote:I.e. I was under the impression that arising of all conditioned dhammas is dukkha by definition because they are conditioned. So even the arising of wisdom, or metta for that matter, is dukkha. So, in terms of the first noble truth, dukkha would have to do with all conditioned dhammas, kusala or akusala.
I would suggest it's only the impermanence of those states which makes them unsatisfactory. If mind-states were continually positive, I don't think existence, rebirth or any of that would be a problem.

I am aware of the three-fold classification of dukkha, but I think that when someone refers to dukkha generally, without qualification, they are referring to the first of these three classifications, rather than all three...

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/unsatisfied.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... and even if that's not what they mean, I'll clarify by saying that's what I meant. :tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Doubting Enlightenment

Post by rowyourboat »

Laurens wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:I believe it because I see progress in that direction in my own mind
How do you define that progress? Against what is it measured?

Ahh, here is an important question. Without knowing the answer to this it would be difficult to know if the mind is headed for enlightenment or not. If a person's craving, aversion and delusion keep getting less, then that is a mind headed for enlightenment. This is a basic/fundamental fact of 'sutta' Buddhism as much as abhidhamma. If you ask the Buddha is standing on one's head and meditating good for you or bad for you, he would probably say 'if it reduces craving, aversion and delusion, by all means...' He has said this in regards to suitable dwellings, even suitable donors of requisites, villages to depend on etc -stay with them (even follow those donors around it is said in the sutta!) if by their proximity there is reduction in craving, aversion and delusion.

Apart from this there are other measures: the growth of ethics, unification of mind and insight for example (the 3 trainings). One could use the 10 fetters or the 5 spiritual faculties.

with metta
With Metta

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