7 lives after stream entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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rightviewftw
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:27 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:54 pm
budo wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:07 pm
The first fetter for stream entry is "Doubt of the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha" this means faith is a factor.
The factor of faith in the Dhamma appears exclusively defined as follows:
Furthermore, he is endowed with verified confidence (faith) in the Dhamma: ‘The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.’

https://suttacentral.net/an5.179/en/thanissaro
i don't know if someone has pointed this out to you or not but you are wrong, again;
"Now what is the faculty of conviction? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called the faculty of conviction.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:51 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:27 pm
i don't know if someone has pointed this out to you or not but ...
Thanks rightviewftw but we were discussing the faith in the Dhamma or Path rather than faith in the Buddha. But, sure, they are connected.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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rightviewftw
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:51 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:27 pm
i don't know if someone has pointed this out to you or not but ...
Thanks rightviewftw but we were discussing the faith in the Dhamma or Path
:focus:
why you then quoting qualities of a stream enterer xD

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:12 am

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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bridif1
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by bridif1 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:57 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:27 pm
i don't know if someone has pointed this out to you or not but you are wrong, again;
"Now what is the faculty of conviction? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called the faculty of conviction.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hi RVFTW!

I maybe wrong, but I think that sutta is better suited for the Buddha's direct, contemporary disciples. They were able to personally what the Tathagata's behavior and reactions.

In our modern scenario, 2.500 years later, we are not talking about the Tathagata, but about a character named in a group of books, texts and oral stories.

It was easier for the direct disciples to have faith, because it was not a blind one, but directed through evidence. For us, the only thing we can do is to have faith in the historical character of the texts and in the validity and practicality of the Teachings.

I think we cannot swallow passively anything at all because of faith. We were lucky to be exposed to the Buddha-Dhamma, and it happens to be that if we have faith in the texts, we will live a good life regardless of the degree skepticism of the practitioner. But what about those born in other countries not exposed to the Dhamma, where their local religions and traditions ask them to have faith in their creeds and scriptures? If those religions are based on superstitions and non-sensical, that faith alone could be potentially destructive.

Faith alone is dangerous, even for us walking the buddhist path.

Kind regards!

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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:13 am

bridif1 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:57 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:27 pm
i don't know if someone has pointed this out to you or not but you are wrong, again;
"Now what is the faculty of conviction? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called the faculty of conviction.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hi RVFTW!

I maybe wrong, but I think that sutta is better suited for the Buddha's direct, contemporary disciples. They were able to personally what the Tathagata's behavior and reactions.

In our modern scenario, 2.500 years later, we are not talking about the Tathagata, but about a character named in a group of books, texts and oral stories.

It was easier for the direct disciples to have faith, because it was not a blind one, but directed through evidence. For us, the only thing we can do is to have faith in the historical character of the texts and in the validity and practicality of the Teachings.

I think we cannot swallow passively anything at all because of faith. We were lucky to be exposed to the Buddha-Dhamma, and it happens to be that if we have faith in the texts, we will live a good life regardless of the degree skepticism of the practitioner. But what about those born in other countries not exposed to the Dhamma, where their local religions and traditions ask them to have faith in their creeds and scriptures? If those religions are based on superstitions and non-sensical, that faith alone could be potentially destructive.

Faith alone is dangerous, even for us walking the buddhist path.

Kind regards!
Hi mate,

I understand your point and it is a valid one. As i see it, faith in the Dhamma is a safe bet and will turn out to bring great benefit. We can go beyond blind faith in several ways, by analysis, coming to agreement and striving to realize with our bodies as much of this Dhamma as we can in this very life.

Imo; Those in countries without Dhamma, without access to the internet or any interest in the Dhamma, let's wish them good luck and hope they get access and interest. If it becomes convenient we can direct some of our resources to these purposes out of compassion and sympathy for them but they are generally screwed it seems.

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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by bridif1 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:28 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:13 am
Hi mate,

I understand your point and it is a valid one. As i see it, faith in the Dhamma is a safe bet and will turn out to bring great benefit. We can go beyond blind faith in several ways, by analysis, coming to agreement and striving to realize with our bodies as much of this Dhamma as we can in this very life.

Imo; Those in countries without Dhamma, without access to the internet or any interest in the Dhamma, let's wish them good luck and hope they get access and interest. If it becomes convenient we can direct some of our resources to these purposes out of compassion and sympathy for them but they are generally screwed it seems.
Then, the question arises:
How do we determine which teachings are worthy to be called 'Dhamma'? And what teaching deserve to be put aside or discarded? Should we take all suttas as valid Dhammic teaching?
That's precisely the point where I agree with DooDoot in the criteria of the "here & now", because, honestly, anything else, seems like the blind faith I pointed before.

But I may be wrong or missing some detail.
If you can correct me, I would really appreciate it.

Kind regards!

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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:11 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:13 am
a safe bet
Interesting translation above however this sutta appears to refer to gambling. Also, it appears to be a pretty low level of dhamma teaching (to houesholders) since one does not have to believe in god or reincarnation to follow the precepts. The precepts are about non-harming and what is harmful is pretty easily discerned; particularly in the modern corporate liberal sensual world. Most of us have been burned or seen others burned from immorality. Also, i have not read anything in this sutta that I inherently disagree with because the words "this world & the other world" appear to refer to results of kamma. It seems it doesn't matter if you believe in here-&now rebirth or post-mortem rebirth. The result of this mundane right view seems the same. For example, personally, I believe via seeing thru my own eyes there is heaven, hell, ghosts, animals & humans; such as animals that cannot control their emotions particularly when they are hungry ghosts craving so much. About the gambling, i think it is two-fold:

(1) if you don't believe in "the other world", you might possibly be a bit negligent with your morality. One does not want to be careless with anatta; like the naughty Vajrayana Tantric gurus.

(ii) if you believe in "the other world", you may be unable to abandon self-view. Thus, you see "self" everywhere. Everything the mind has sense contact with, it just creates identitarian self-views; left, right, up, down, centre, in, out, everywhere. Self, you, me, they, them, us, I. I am - these delusions never end. This is why the Lord Buddha warned about sīlabbata-parāmāsa and included sīlabbata-parāmāsa together with self-view as the first fetters to be circumcised for stream-entry. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa essentially means "fondling" or "masturbating" with morality. The puthujjana becomes obsessed with morality and starts generating self-views from their virtue signalling or moral self-righteousness. The Buddha warned about this.
bridif1 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:28 am
But I may be wrong or missing some detail.
I think what you might be missing is religion is often a lustful object for those seeking domineering power over others. I imagine that is why the history of religion is replete with violent & abuse religious clerics. Fortunately, Theravada has Vinaya, which creates appropriate boundaries between bhikkhus & laypeople. Properly trained bhikkhus don't spend their time chastising & criticising lay people.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by auto » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:51 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an10.27/en/sujato
Sattasu viññāṇaṭṭhitīsu
The seven planes of consciousness
is it possible that stream entry have seven lives is related to seven planes of consciousness. Seventh existence.

Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti,
Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni;
Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,
Na te bhavaṃ aṭṭhamam ādiyanti;
Idampi saṃghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṃ,
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu.

Those who clearly distinguish the noble truths,
which have been well preached by the one with great wisdom,
no matter how great they become in heedlessness
still they do not take up an eighth existence—
this excellent treasure is in the Sangha:
by virtue of this truth may there be safety!

https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/anandajoti
https://suttacentral.net/an10.27/en/sujato
The eight worldly conditions
Aṭṭhasu lokadhammesu

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