The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:59 am

Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am
What is sad is that Dhammanando does not know what is meant by vinnana, sankhara, sanna, etc etc. If he does...
Make up your mind mister. If you are not sure then you should not be badmouthing a Bhikkhu.

You are the one without a shred of understanding of what it is your are arguing against whilst trying to promote these "hidden treasures" of interpretations, better hide that baloney where you found it and keep it hidden.

Your theories are based on the Sutta only as far as the subject of their interpretation is the Sutta.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:32 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:59 am
Make up your mind mister. If you are not sure then you should not be badmouthing a Bhikkhu.
My impression is he is demonstrating some personal concern & disagreement rather than "badmouthing".
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am
What is sad is that Dhammanando does not know what is meant by vinnana, sankhara, sanna, etc etc.
I'm sure folks have different views, which I will now provide an example of.
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am
But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA; with the cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA
Abhisankhara appears to be discussed in SN 12.51 as a type of attachment (9th condition). To quote:
Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world (Anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto na kiñci loke upādiyati). Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.51/en/bodhi
SN 12.2 appears to define 'sankhara' as follows and not as abhisankhara:
Tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā—
kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.
Kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro appear defined as follows:
In-&-out breaths are kāyasaṅkhāro. Directed thought & evaluation are vacīsaṅkhāro. Perceptions & feelings are cittasaṅkhāro.

MN 44
Appears unrelated to abhisankhara. :!:
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am
But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA; with the cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA
The Pali for sankhara is katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā. "Saṅkhārā" is the only nidana that is PLURAL. It appears to be PLURAL to show all three sankharo can arise at the same mind moment. Defiled breathing, perception, feeling & thinking can arise in the same moment. But meritorious volitional formation, demeritorious volitional formation & imperturbable volitional formation cannot arise at the same mind moment. This again shows (ABHI)SANKHARA is not saṅkhārā (2nd condition).
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am
But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA; with the cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA
Since the Lord Buddha had perfect control of his faculties, who was also the perfect speaker and who used the term "abhisaṅkharo" often, if the Lord Buddha meant "sankhara" ("2nd link") to mean "abhisaṅkharo", the Lord Buddha would have used the word "abhisaṅkharo". But the Lord Buddha did not use the word "abhisaṅkharo", here. This again shows (ABHI)SANKHARA is not saṅkhārā (2nd condition).
"Monks, these two badmouth the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who badmouth the Tathagata."

AN 2.23
When the mind attains STREAM-ENTRY, it will have relatively PURE undefiled concentration. This pure undefiled concentration will discern when the slightest smallest asava arises out of ignorance, even if there is no thinking in the mind, this small tiny asava will agitate the breathing. A real sotappana can see this. This shows the 2nd nidana includes defiled breathing (kaya sankharo). When the mind attains stream-entry, this will be discerned. But when the mind is not stream-entry, full of papanca, only experiencing papanca, subject to papanca, slave to papance; this puthujjhana will believe "saṅkhārā " is "abhisankhara".

:smile: :meditate:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 am

Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am

What is sad is that Dhammanando does not know what is meant by vinnana, sankhara, sanna, etc etc. If he does, he should explain in detail the key verse given below which describes how the "whole mass suffering" arises with avijja, sankhara, and vinnana. He should also describe in detail how mere phassa (contact) can lead to "samphassa ja vedana", the difference between bhava and jati, etc., etc.,
There don't seem to be many others who think that Ven. Dhammanando should do any such thing. Having (along with Venerable Pesala) proven you wrong, he has not returned to this thread, presumably because he thinks it so misguided as to be not worth bothering with.

Since that "baloney" episode, you have occasionally managed to attract the attention of a few newcomers. It's good that rightviewftw and others keep raising the "baloney" episode from a couple of years back, because it helps newcomers to gain a more informed viewpoint without having to plough through what is now a huge thread replete with repetitive and closely-argued posts.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:26 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:40 am
“San’ is basically the term for “good and bad things we acquire” through our moral/immoral deeds.

6. From Paticca Samuppāda, all sufferings start with, “avijjā paccayā sankhāra“. Thus, when one gets rid of avijjā completely (at the Arahant stage), all sankhāra are stopped and one attains Nibbāna.
SN 22.85 appears to say a Buddha still has sankhara (until the end of life):
If, friend Yamaka, they were to ask you: ‘Friend Yamaka, when a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, what happens to him with the breakup of the body, after death?’—being asked thus, what would you answer?”

If they were to ask me this, friend, I would answer thus: ‘Friends, form is impermanent; what is impermanent is dukkha; what is dukkha has ceased and passed away. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is impermanent; what is impermanent is dukkha; what is dukkha has ceased and passed away.’ Being asked thus, friend, I would answer in such a way.”

“Good, good, friend Yamaka!

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/bodhi
Also DN 16:
So at the Cāpāla tree shrine the Buddha, mindful and aware, surrendered the life force.
Atha kho bhagavā cāpāle cetiye sato sampajāno āyusaṅkhāraṃ ossaji.

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato
Since a Buddha is beyond merit & demerit, it appears Lal's idiosyncratic ideas about “San" might be contrary to the Pali suttas.
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:40 am
when one gets rid of avijjā completely (at the Arahant stage), all sankhāra are stopped and one attains Nibbāna.
The suttas appear to describe Nibbana as including the "calming" ("samatho") of all sankhara. I doubt "stopping" means "samatha".
It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the samatho of all saṅkhāra, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.
Idampi kho ṭhānaṃ duddasaṃ yadidaṃ—sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
If a Buddha did not have any sankhara khandha, how could a Buddha think & talk? :?

SN 12.2 appears to define 'sankhara' as follows and not as abhisankhara:
Tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā—
kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.
Kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro appear defined as follows:
In-&-out breaths are kāyasaṅkhāro. Directed thought & evaluation are vacīsaṅkhāro. Perceptions & feelings are cittasaṅkhāro.

MN 44
Vacīsaṅkhāro is described as follows:
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech.

MN 44
Obviously a Buddha has vacīsaṅkhāro. :geek: But according to the wrong translations by Lal and others, one's sankhara would cease when attaining the Arahanthood (sankharanirodho)! :?

"Avijjāya tveva asesa­virāga­nirodhā saṅ­khā­ra­nirodho; saṅ­khā­ra­nirodhā viññāṇanirodho; Which means:

“But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of DEFILED SANKHARA; with the cessation of DEFILED SANKHARA, cessation of DEFILED consciousness; with the cessation of DEFILED consciousness, cessation of DEFILED mind-&-body...

According to the wrong translations by LaL and others, one's kaya, vaci & citta sankhara would cease when attaining the Arahanthood (sankharanirodho)! There would be no breathing, no perception & feeling and no ability to speak. Just deaf, dumb & blind.

:toilet:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm

According to the wrong translations by LaL and others, one's kaya, vaci & citta sankhara would cease when attaining the Arahanthood (sankharanirodho)! There would be no breathing, no perception & feeling and no ability to speak. Just deaf, dumb & blind.
 

You have NOT understood the difference between sankhara and abhisankhara.
- And Arahant would have sankhara (would think, speak, and do bodily actions that are NOT defiled), but no abhisankhara (would NOT think, speak, and do bodily actions that are defiled, i.e., with greed, hate, or ignorance).

This is why I emphasized that "sankhara norodho" should be interpreted as "abhisankhara nirodho", in the same way that "vinnana nirodho" should be translated as "ceasing of DEFILED vinnana". This is why suttas SHOULD NOT be translated word-by-word. The translator MUST understand the key terms and discuss them in detail.

Please take time to read: "Paticca Samuppāda and Viññāna" Dec 23, 2018 (p. 57); "Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna" Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57); "Vinnana and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppada" Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).

P.S. Another post that describes how to interpret suttas: "Sutta – The Need to Explain Deep Sutta Verses in Detail" Jan 07, 2019, p. 58.
Last edited by Lal on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:30 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:40 am

- Each Pāli word is packed with lot of information, and thus commentaries were written to expound the meaning of important Pāli words.
- A good example is the key Pāli word “anicca“. In Sanskrit it is “anitya“, and this is what normally translated to English as “impermanence”. But the actual meaning of anicca is very clear when one realizes that the Pāli word “icca” (pronounced “ichcha”) means “this is what I like”. Thus anicca has the opposite meaning (“na” + “icca“) or “cannot keep it the way I like”; see, “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“.

18. One is bound to this world of 31 realms because one has not removed the tendency to do dasa akusala. This can be stated in various ways: one’s gati, āsava, anusaya, samyōjana, etc; see, “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna“ at puredhamma.net.

- As long as one has any types of gati, āsava, anusaya, samyōjana, one has the ability to pile up more “san” or to do dasa akusala.
- Once one removes the strongest of the dasa akusala (and especially the 10 types of micchā ditthi), one will be able to grasp the Tilakkhana.
- Then one’s punna kamma will become kusala kamma, leading to the four stages of Nibbāna. This is a subtle point, but is explained in simple terms in the post, “Can or Should a Lay Follower Eliminate Sensual Desires?” published September 26, 2018 (p. 33).
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/pli/ms
So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.
abhinna, ananna, samana, nibbisesa - same, also abhinna means identical
avicchinna, abhinna - unbroken
abhiññā- knowing
ajjhositā- adhi+ava+sa


feeling is felt or known through a wall of emptiness. You have to go out of yourself to know the feeling hence abhinna superpower, mind over matter.
---
i think the belief in self sakkaya ditthi is about the identification, sameness, not able to discern. sakkaya=atta.

atta,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
vicikicchā , second fetter. absence of doubt.

why it is translated to doubt, is when having doubt in buddha's teachings.

icchaka - one who desires.
---
same way sakkaya ditthi is absense of or not able to discern sense of self.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:24 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm
You have NOT understood the difference between sankhara and abhisankhara.
Sorry. It seems to be YOU that does not understand. I provided three reasons you were unable to refute why sankhara is not abhisankhara.
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm
This is why I emphasized that "sankhara norodho" should be interpreted as "abhisankhara nirodho"
Please directly quote & refute what I post. In discussion, we should not be rude & disrespectful so to completely ignore what the other person writes. "Sankhara norodho" is not "abhisankhara nirodho" and does not need to be interpreted as "abhisankhara nirodho".
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm
in the same way that "vinnana nirodho" should be translated as "ceasing of DEFILED vinnana".
You are now completely contradicting yourself. If you interpret "vinnana nirodho" as "ceasing of DEFILED vinnana", then you can also translate "sankhara nirodho" as "ceasing of DEFILED sankhara". Therefore, is not necessary to interpret "sankhara" as "abhisankhara".
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm
This is why suttas SHOULD NOT be translated word-by-word. The translator MUST understand the key terms and discuss them in detail.
I provided three reasons you were unable to refute why sankhara is not abhisankhara. Please directly quote & refute what I post. In discussion, we should not be rude & disrespectful so to completely ignore what the other person writes.
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm
Please take time to read: "Paticca Samuppāda and Viññāna" Dec 23, 2018 (p. 57); "Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna" Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57); "Vinnana and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppada" Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).
It is you that should read what others post. I have read your proliferations and refuted them; as follows:

1. If sankhara are abhisankhara the Buddha would have used the word abhisankhara.

2. The word abhisankhara refers only to sankhara khandha (SN 22.79), where as the sankhara at the 2nd link appear literally defined as breathing (rupa khandha), perception (sanna khandha) & feeling (vedana khandha) and thinking (sankhara khandha). Sankhara here does not mean abhisankhara.

3. The word 'sankhara' at the 2nd link is PLURAL. Being plural, it cannot refer to abhisankhara because all three meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable thoughts cannot arise together at the same time.

4. SN 12.51 appears to directly say abhisankhara is clinging (9th link).

5. Just because SN 12.51 refers to abhisankhara affecting consciousness does not mean this consciousness is the 3rd link. AN 3.76, for example, refers to consciousness affected by craving & kamma (which are not the 2nd link).

6. Consciousness in dependent origination appears to be before kamma. Intention is first mentioned in nama-rupa therefore it appears (mental) kamma cannot occur before nama-rupa.

7. Consciousness in dependent origination appears to be about how consciousness is defiled by asava & distracting thoughts. Refer to MN 9 which discusses how ignorance includes asava & refer to MN 19 which mentions distracting thoughts. This stage of dependent origination appears too early for kamma and too early for abhisankhara.

8. When the mind has stream-entry & samadhi, the mind will discern how the slightest non-verbal asava will agitate the breathing. This is avicca-paccaya-kayasankharo. On this subtle level, vaci sankhara & citta sankhara do not have to arise.

:strawman:
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:25 am

The fact that sankhara in the "avijja paccaya sankhara" step is really "avijja paccaya abhisankhara" is in the Paticcasamuppāda Vibhanga in the Vibhangapakaranahttps://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/vb6:

"Tattha katame avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro."

For the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda, the main contribution comes from apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra.
From the same source: "Tattha katamo apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro? Akusalā cetanā kāmāvacarā—ayaṃ vuccati “apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro”.

Translated: "apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra are those akusala done with akusala cetana or basically immoral thoughts, speech, and actions" or simply dasa akusala.

I have discussed apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra in the posts that I quoted earlier today. Instead of just repeating wrong translations, those who are commenting should read what I have already explained.

The key is of course to explain the following verse:
"Avijjāya tveva asesa­virāga­nirodhā saṅ­khā­ra­nirodho; saṅ­khā­ra­nirodhā viññāṇanirodho; viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpa­nirodho; nāmarūpa­nirodhā saḷāya­tana­nirodho; saḷāya­tana­nirodhā phassanirodho; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho; vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho; taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho; upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho; bhavanirodhā jātinirodho; jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ soka­pari­deva­duk­kha­do­manas­supāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa duk­khak­khan­dhassa nirodho hotī”ti. - Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1, and basically all the suttas in SN 12)

So, from above, "sankhāra nirōdha" in the Paticca Samuppada verse refers to "abhisankhāra nirōdha" or those sankhāra done with a defiled mind, i.e., dasa akusala are involved.
- That is why the viññāṇa involved is "DEFILED consciousness".
- And "dukkha nirōdha" is attained when the "DEFILED consciousness" is cleansed by stopping abhisankhāra.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:18 am

Lal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:25 am
The fact that sankhara in the "avijja paccaya sankhara" step is really "avijja paccaya abhisankhara" is in the Paticcasamuppāda Vibhanga in the Vibhangapakaranahttps://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/vb6:
Yes but the above abhidhamma is both not sutta and appears wrong. Sankhara in abhidhamma is singular where as sankhara in sutta is plural. This difference is extremely important and you are completely avoiding this difference.

Abhidhamma makes sankhara singular to avoid a contradiction and allow for its theory that only one sankharo (e.g. meritorious sankharo) can arise in one mind moment. This shows Abhidhamma is teaching different to sutta.

In sutta, when asava flows out of ignorance, three things can happen simultaneously in one mind moment, namely:

1. The breathing (kaya sankharo) becomes disturbed or 'arises' ('samudaya').

2. Distracting thoughts (vaci sankharo) arise.

3. Perception & feeling (citta sankharo) associated with or included in those distracting thoughts also arise.

In summary:

1. In sutta, three sankharo can arise together in one mind moment.

2. But in abhidhamma, only one sankharo can arises in one mind moment.

If you do not address this issue of PLURAL vs SINGULAR then you are avoiding the key issue. I think this avoidance is called "eel wriggling".

:strawman: :jedi:
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:06 pm

Last night I discovered  something interesting. It seems that "abhisankhāra" is not even mentioned in any suttas! It may still be in some, but most suttas do not seem to have that word.

The Dangers in Just Focusing on Suttas – Tipitaka Has Two More Pitakas!

1. Even though I learned about the true meaning of vinnana and sankhāra from Waharaka Thero, I had known the difference between sankhāra and abhisankhāra even as a child.

- Now the picture is becoming clear to me. At least those who are commenting here have not known about the term "abhisankhāra".
"Abhi" means "high" or "strong".
- An Arahant would have sankhāra (would think, speak, and do bodily actions that are NOT defiled), but no abhisankhāra (would NOT think, speak, and do bodily actions that are defiled, i.e., with greed, hate, or ignorance).

2. The difference between sankhāra and abhisankhāra is clearly discussed only in the original commentaries (Vibhangapakarana, nettipakarana, and petakopadesa) that are included with the Tipitaka.

- I have not had time to see whether abhisankhāra is discussed in later commentaries like Visuddhimagga. If some one knows, please comment on that.

3. The fact that sankhāra in the "avijja paccaya sankhāra" step is really "avijja paccaya abhisankhāra" is in the Paticcasamuppāda Vibhanga in the Vibhangapakarana: [html]https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/vb6[/html]

"Tattha katame avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro."

- For the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda, the main contribution comes from apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra (apunna abhi saṅ­khāra).

From the same source:
"Tattha katamo apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro? Akusalā cetanā kāmāvacarā—ayaṃ vuccati “apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro”.

Translated: "apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra are those akusala done with akusala cetana or basically immoral thoughts, speech, and actions" or simply dasa akusala.

- I have discussed apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra in the posts "Paticca Samuppāda and Viññāna" Dec 23, 2018 (p. 57); "Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna" Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57); "Vinnana and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppada" Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).

4. The other important point is that there are "three Pitakas" or "three parts" in the Tipitaka. If one just focus on the Sutta Pitaka, one may not have the right background. Of course, the original commentaries are very important too.

- Looking back, I can see why I had to spend so much time writing about the fact that it took several days for the Buddha to describe the material in the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta to the five ascetics; see, "On the Group of Five Ascetics", October 12, 2018 (p. 38),  where I pasted text from the Vinaya Pitaka. That discussion went on for a while.
- Because that account was in the Vinaya Pitaka, and is not there in the Sutta Pitaka. So, if one is just reading suttas, one would not have known that fact.

5. In order to get the "full picture" one needs the whole Tipitaka. Of course, no one can read the whole Tipitaka.

- Good teachers know (from their teachers) know which sections are important. That is how the essence of Buddha Dhamma is passed down from one generation to the next.
- As I said, I knew about the difference between sankhāra and abhisankhāra since my childhood. And some people reading this thread may also know at least that "abhisankhāra are strong sankhāra".
- But I learned the true meaning of viññāna from Waharaka Thero.

6. Here is another important aspect of this. I am pointing out this for no other reason than to clarify the present situation.

- Most people (including bhikkhus) who write books or translate suttas to English are Westerners. They MAY NOT have had been exposed to this additional material from the other two pitakas.
- Of course, there are exceptions. For example, Bhikkhu Nānamoli  (who was a Westerner) included that account in the Vinaya Pitaka on the five ascetics in his book, “The Life of the Buddha”.
- Based on what I have read, Bhikkhu Bodhi may be another exception. He definitely knows about the difference between sankhāra and abhisanhara.
- I am sure some other bhikkhus also know that difference, but they have not pointed that out in sutta translations in the context of viññāna as "defiled consciousness".

7. All these bhikkhus are dedicated to Buddha Dhamma and I have no doubts that they have high faith in the Buddha and his teachings. But their faith will increase 1000-fold if they can grasp the realm meaning of viññāna.

- The key to “nāmarūpa pariccēda ñāna“ is to see the link between mind and matter. Viññāna is that link. It happens at the "viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa" step in Paticca Samuppāda.
- This is pointed out succinctly in the Majje Sutta (AN 6.61), where it is stated that nama is at one end, rūpa is at the other end, with viññāna in the middle: “nāmaṃ kho, āvuso, eko anto, rūpaṃ dutiyo anto, viññāṇaṃ majjhe“.
- As I pointed out, vviññāna cannot be understood without realizing the difference between sankhāra and abhisankhāra.

8. For the last time, I am pointing out that the main issue here is to understand how the "whole mass of suffering" arises starting with avijja, (abhi)sankhāra, and viññāna.

"Avijjāya tveva asesa­virāga­nirodhā saṅ­khā­ra­nirodho; saṅ­khā­ra­nirodhā viññāṇanirodho; viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpa­nirodho; nāmarūpa­nirodhā saḷāya­tana­nirodho; saḷāya­tana­nirodhā phassanirodho; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho; vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho; taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho; upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho; bhavanirodhā jātinirodho; jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ soka­pari­deva­duk­kha­do­manas­supāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa duk­khak­khan­dhassa nirodho hotī”ti. - Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1, and basically all the suttas in SN 12)

Which I translate as:
But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA; with the cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA, cessation of DEFILED consciousness; with the cessation of DEFILED consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six AYATANA; with the cessation of the six AYATANA, cessation of SAMPHASSA (SAN +PHASSA); with the cessation of SAMPHASSA, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence (BHAVA); with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth (JATI); with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”

auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:44 pm

defiled is english word, what is pali word?

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:28 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:06 pm
Last night I discovered  something interesting. It seems that "abhisankhāra" is not even mentioned in any suttas! It may still be in some, but most suttas do not seem to have that word.

The Dangers in Just Focusing on Suttas – Tipitaka Has Two More Pitakas!

1. Even though I learned about the true meaning of vinnana and sankhāra from Waharaka Thero, I had known the difference between sankhāra and abhisankhāra even as a child.

- Now the picture is becoming clear to me. At least those who are commenting here have not known about the term "abhisankhāra".
"Abhi" means "high" or "strong".
The PTS dictionary gives this for the prefix "abhi-"
The primary meaning of abhi is that of taking possession and mastering, as contained in E. coming by and over-coming, thus literally having the function of facing and aggressing = towards, against on to, at (see II.1a and b) mastering = over, along over, out over, on top of
Which has the possibility that abhisankhara refers to the overcoming or mastering of sankhara; the facing and aggressing towards sankhara. What are the rules which govern how prefixes relate to the words they are affixed to? A secondary or derivative use is that of an intensifier, which fits your definition better, but raises the question as to which one is the more appropriate here. For abhisankhara itself, the PTS gives
preparation; development; performance; accumulation of motive force (as a result of action), impetus.
Again, the existence of such a definition - which is very different from yours - raises the question as to why we prefer one definition and usage rather than another, and the possibility that we might select it because it supports our prejudices. Your oft-repeated claim that we cannot rely on word-for-word translations of suttas has now been augmented by a claim that we cannot rely on one pitaka alone. I wonder if this might progress to a further warning that only a small number of Sri Lankans are, by virtue of linguistic and cultural heritage, able to understand the Dhamma?

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:34 pm

auto wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:44 pm
defiled is english word, what is pali word?
There is no Pali word for it in that passage, other than the term for consciousness - viññāna. The "defiled" bit is read into the term, just as the "abhi" is read into sankhara.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:05 pm

auto wrote:
defiled is english word, what is pali word?
One does dasa akusala with a defiled mind. Also, when one perceives the external world with a defiled mind, one could do dasa akusala.
- The Pali word Kilesa is also used to denote defilements, which are greed (lobha), hate (dosa), and ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (avijja).

Sam Vara wrote:
I wonder if this might progress to a further warning that only a small number of Sri Lankans are, by virtue of linguistic and cultural heritage, able to understand the Dhamma?
No. It is not a cultural issue.
- There are many Sri Lankans too, who are not able to grasp these explanations. I see some of them on Dhamma Wheel. I have had discussions with some on this thread.

Buddha Dhamma needs to be explained by the Buddha himself or a disciple who has grasped the essence of his teachings: What is the "dukkha" that he taught? What is in the First Noble Truth? Without that understanding, one can be going around in circles.
- If one learns a wrong version, of course one will have no chance of grasping the key ideas.
- Just because it is taught by a scholar or a bhikkhu does not mean it is the true Dhamma. Academic degrees don't matter here. What matters is whether one can describe a given concept in one's own words, so that another can truly understand.
- For example, the word sankhara is normally translated as "formations", which does not convey any idea about what it really means. If one knows what is meant by "san" and "khara", the meaning is embedded in the word itself. I have explained this in detail, but most people do not seem to take the time to read.

P.S. We must also realize that dictionaries are as good as the understanding of the persons who wrote them.
Last edited by Lal on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:16 pm

ok,
Satta(beings) come infatuated with aggregates, love(sārajjitatta) is a requisite condition.

Bodybuilders can start love muscular body, so they may start inject synthol, and what helps to get rid of that obsession is stress, sicknesses because of infections etc and the desire to inject goes away at least for a while.

so if person is stuck with that delusion then you tell that person that aggregates are subject to change, the feud will going to be change and you are then after something else etc.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
[At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:] "Monks, there are these five groups of clinging. What five? The body-group of clinging, the feeling-group, the perception-group, the mental-formation-group, the consciousness-group of clinging.

"And when, monks, the Ariyan disciple understands as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, he is called an Ariyan disciple who is a Stream-winner, not liable to states of woe,[1] assured of final enlightenment."
is alcoholic who understand he is alcoholic, doing bad things under the influence of alcohol, after getting sober he knows he did wrong feeling shame etc, does he qualify for being streamentry?

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