The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:48 pm

If we take other translations, perhaps;
Consciousness non-manifesting
or
Consciousness without a feature
or
Consciousness that is signless
What do these things mean?

Let us start with one: What do you understand by "non-manifesting"? Manifesting what?

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:57 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:48 pm
If we take other translations, perhaps;
Consciousness non-manifesting
or
Consciousness without a feature
or
Consciousness that is signless
What do these things mean?

Let us start with one: What do you understand by "non-manifesting"? Manifesting what?
There is nothing to start for it is already finished. Trust me i know where you are going with this and let me stop you right here, Vinnana does not manifest anything, it cognizes, it is nowhere explained as "it manifests longing". Therefore no, these ideas are absurd.

If we translate the compound as Consciosness non-manifesting it is consciousness itself that is not manifested due to cessation of it.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
The above is the referent for;
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
This ayatana is known by cessation of consciousness and this is what is being declared in the VInnana Anidassanam verse;
‘Consciousness non-manifesting,
Boundless, luminous all-round:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
Mn49;
"'Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you.'

"'If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.'


"'Consciousness non-manifesting,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'[9]

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:20 pm

Vinnana does not manifest anything, it cognizes, it is nowhere explained as "it manifests longing". Therefore no, these ideas are absurd.
This is the key point that you (and your teachers) and I disagree with. Time will tell who is right. The truth cannot be suppressed.

You are just rehashing what so many others have already quoted many times in this thread. There is no point going back to that.

My suggestion:
Please let others read what I have to say, without interrupting. You have so many other threads here that you and like-minded can discuss and debate. I do not post in other threads.

In any case, I will not respond to comments like this again. There is nothing new.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:18 am

Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:20 pm
Vinnana does not manifest anything, it cognizes, it is nowhere explained as "it manifests longing". Therefore no, these ideas are absurd.
This is the key point that you (and your teachers) and I disagree with. Time will tell who is right. The truth cannot be suppressed.

You are just rehashing what so many others have already quoted many times in this thread. There is no point going back to that.

My suggestion:
Please let others read what I have to say, without interrupting. You have so many other threads here that you and like-minded can discuss and debate. I do not post in other threads.

In any case, I will not respond to comments like this again. There is nothing new.
You often say that your theories are based on the Sutta, so let it not turn out to be a false & empty statement. I invite you to show where in the Sutta consciousness is explained to be manifesting longing.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:34 pm

You often say that your theories are based on the Sutta, so let it not turn out to be a false & empty statement. I invite you to show where in the Sutta consciousness is explained to be manifesting longing.
Yes. I do, and here is the evidence.

Where in Suttas Say That Viññāna Is Defiled Consciousness?

That vinnana is "defiled consciousness" is in many suttas! You just cannot see it.
- You (and your teachers) don't see that because you have not understood key concepts in Buddha Dhamma: dasa akusala, Paticca Samuppada, kamma and kamma vipaka, etc.

Most people have the mindset that all one needs to do is to read suttas. And they START by reading deep suttas, with no comprehension of the fundamentals.
- One needs to read basic suttas first, before reading deeper suttas.
- Another problem is of course that the deeper suttas cannot be translated word-by-word.
- So, you all in these other forums will just going around in loops without making any progress. Just read some of those threads going back to 10-15 years. They have virtually the same stuff!

Arising of all future suffering is explained in Paticca Samuppāda, starting with one's ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (avijjā).

If one understands Paticca Samuppāda, one will KNOW that "viññāna nirōdha" leads to "dukkha nirōdha", i.e., ending of ALL suffering.
- Obviously "viññāna nirōdha" does not mean losing consciousness. Buddha had the "best awareness", so to speak.
- He only lost defilements in viññāna upon attaining the Buddhahood.

That is is what confuses most people. Viññāna is "defiled consciousness", and when one attains the Arahant stage, one's viññāna becomes purified. But there is no separate word used to specifically indicate the "purified viññāna" of an Arahant. It is just understood that viññāna of an Arahant is not contaminated.

Almost all suttas in Nidāna Saṃyutta say that "viññāna nirōdha" leads to "dukkha nirōdha" [html]https://legacy.suttacentral.net/sn12[/html]
- That is indicated very clearly in going backwards in the Paticca Samuppāda sequence.

For example, quoting from the Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)[html]https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn12.1[/html]:
"Avijjāya tveva asesa­virāga­nirodhā saṅ­khā­ra­nirodho; saṅ­khā­ra­nirodhā viññāṇanirodho; [b]viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpa­nirodho[/b]; nāmarūpa­nirodhā saḷāya­tana­nirodho; saḷāya­tana­nirodhā phassanirodho; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho; vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho; taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho; upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho; bhavanirodhā jātinirodho; jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ soka­pari­deva­duk­kha­do­manas­supāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa duk­khak­khan­dhassa nirodho hotī”ti.

Now, this verse is translated incorrectly in all English translations that I have seen; for example: Dependent Origination: [html]https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1[/html]
"“But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”

I hope you can see the grave error in the translation. One's consciousness DOES NOT cease when attaining the Arahanthood (ONE DOES NOT BECOME UNCONSCIOUS). It just becomes PURIFIED. It should be translated as "with the cessation of DEFILED consciousness, cessation of name-and-form".

In the same way, "sankhāra nirōdha" leads to "dukkha nirōdha" too.
- We cultivate defiled viññāna by thinking, speaking, and acting in ways that are associated with dasa akusala, i.e., making abhisankhara. That is what leads to a "defiled mindset" or "defiled viññāna", which is the cause of all future suffering.

Of course, it all starts with avijjā or the "ignorance of the Four Noble Truths", and thus, "avijjā nirōdha" leads to "dukkha nirōdha".

So, one needs to understand all these fundamental aspects: dasa akusala, paticca samuppada, etc. and comprehend the Four Noble Truths in order to to remove avijjā.

That is what I have tried to explain over the past few months. A lot of "essential aspects of Buddha Dhamma" have been discussed in those posts. If you are interested, you can read them.

P.S. I have provided more evidence from other suttas in the following posts:
“Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana” explained August 21, 2018 (p. 23).
“Nine Stages of a Thought (Citta)” August 19, 2018 (p. 22).
Clarification of vinnana on August 17, August 18, 2018 (p. 21).
Paticca Samuppada explained on August 5, 2018 (p. 16) and clarified in in following posts.
Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) and on the fact that there are no rebuttals to my arguments” Jul 15, 2018 (p. 15).
“The real nature of viññāna as cause for suffering is clearly stated in the “Dvayatānupassanā sutta (Sutta Nipata 3.12)“: Jun 30, 2018 (p. 12) AND Jul 02, 2018 (two posts on P. 13)

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:48 pm

Avijjāya is basically avinnana, wrong cognizion. Like hearing mechanically wrongly

Your ear will have a hearing aide, that fabrication is requisite for consciousness to arise.
That fabricated information is fed to you that you would understand it, if you would receive sound without fabrication consciousness wouldn't arise due to impairment

vi+anna+na = impaired knowledge

when you get better then that consciousness is abandoned.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
As he was sitting there, he said to the nun: "This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.
defiled consciousness is used to abandon defiled consciousness. It is your true and only one risen thanks to fabrications
---
otherwise
what you use to know what is right and wrong?

sa+anna=ones own knowledge?
or veda+na= hunch, conscience?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:15 am

defiled consciousness is used to abandon defiled consciousness. It is your true and only one risen thanks to fabrications
---
otherwise
what you use to know what is right and wrong?

sa+anna=ones own knowledge?
or veda+na= hunch, conscience?
I am sorry. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I presume that by "fabrications" you mean "sankhara". One thinks, speaks, and acts based on one's (mano, vaci, and kaya) sankhara. Learn what is meant by those Pali terms and use the Pali terms.

Sanna is NOT knowledge, it is recognition/perception. Vedana is NOT "hunch"! It is what one "feels".

You need to read my posts on sankhara, sanna, vedana, if you want me to comment any further. I have explained those concepts. I cannot keep repeating things.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:54 am

I asked where do you see conscousness explained to be manifesting or have the function to manifest anything... You failed to provide any relevant info. I will answer for you; nowhere is consciousness explained to be manifesting anything.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:05 pm

Lal wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:15 am
defiled consciousness is used to abandon defiled consciousness. It is your true and only one risen thanks to fabrications
---
otherwise
what you use to know what is right and wrong?

sa+anna=ones own knowledge?
or veda+na= hunch, conscience?
I am sorry. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I presume that by "fabrications" you mean "sankhara". One thinks, speaks, and acts based on one's (mano, vaci, and kaya) sankhara. Learn what is meant by those Pali terms and use the Pali terms.

Sanna is NOT knowledge, it is recognition/perception. Vedana is NOT "hunch"! It is what one "feels".

You need to read my posts on sankhara, sanna, vedana, if you want me to comment any further. I have explained those concepts. I cannot keep repeating things.
--
Lal wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:34 pm

I hope you can see the grave error in the translation. One's consciousness DOES NOT cease when attaining the Arahanthood (ONE DOES NOT BECOME UNCONSCIOUS). It just becomes PURIFIED. It should be translated as "with the cessation of DEFILED consciousness, cessation of name-and-form".
--
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"If consciousness were exclusively pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings would not be disenchanted with consciousness.
sukha is pleasure what is requisite for getting caught up with khandha.
dukkha is stress what is requisite for mind growing otherway as getting less and less stuck

that sukha and dukkha are a wheel, yinyang. Cultivate dukkha to get to origin of it what is avijjaya born sukha. So if that avijjaya ceases then also duk­khak­khan­dhassa ceases.

That is completion of your own goal, no more birth. But there is body too to be cultivated.

and you will then have body originated sukha and dukkha. 3rd jhana.
--
Sati, mindfulness is done by those who are complete, finished the task. 1st Sati is already with kayasankhara.
Mechanics for to awaken is different here, here you activate factors for to awaken.


and of course there is more mechanics.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:40 am

Instead of looking for roots in Sanskrit, the meanings of many key Pali words can be found by understanding the root "san".

What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)

1. A key Pāli word, the meaning of which has been hidden for thousands of years, is “san” (pronounced like son). “San’ is basically the term for “good and bad things we acquire” through our moral/immoral deeds.

-By understanding this root word, one can clearly see the meanings of many important Pāli words, without looking for roots in Sanskrit.

2. There is a reason for calling what we “acquire or add” as “san“. In Pāli and Sinhala, the word for numbers is “sankhyā“, and sankhyā = “san” + “khyā“, meaning add and subtract; i.e., sankhyā is what is used for addition and subtraction.

- From this, “san” gives the idea of “acquiring or adding”.
- In the same way, “khyā” implies “removal or subtraction”.

3. Therefore, “san” is used to indicate things we do to lengthen our sansāric (or samsāric)journey; see below for examples.

- These “san” are nothing else but dasa akusala (that lead to rebirth in the apayas) and also punna kamma (that lead to rebirths in the “good realms”); see, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.
- One may wonder why moral deeds or punna kamma are also included in “san”. That is because they also lead to rebirths (“add” to sansāric journey).
- However, one MUST do punna kamma in order to avoid rebirth in the apayas.

4. In the same way, “khyā” or “Khaya” is used to indicate shortening of the sansāric journey.

- Nibbāna is attained via removal of defilements (rāga, dōsa, mōha), and thus Nibbāna is “rāgakkhaya“, “dōsakkhaya“, and “mōhakkhaya“.
- Those three words have roots in “khaya” or “subtraction or removal”. For example, rāgakkhaya comes from “rāga” + “khaya“, combined to be pronounced as rāgakkhaya.
- Thus it is quite clear that rāgakkhaya means “removing rāga”. Same for “dōsakkhaya“, and “mōhakkhaya“. Nibbāna is reached via getting rid of rāga, dōsa, and mōha.

5. Just by grasping these key ideas, it is possible to understand the roots of many common words, such as sankhāra, sansāra, saññā, sammā, etc. Let us analyze some of these words.

- We “add to” our rebirth process when we do “san“. The Pali word for “doing” is “khāra” (Sinhala word is “kāra” or කාර). That is the origin of the word “sankhāra” (“san” + “khāra“); the Sinhala word is sankāra or සංකාර).

6. From Paticca Samuppāda, all sufferings start with, “avijjā paccayā sankhāra“. Thus, when one gets rid of avijjā completely (at the Arahant stage), all sankhāra are stopped and one attains Nibbāna.

- From the Manasikāra Sutta (AN 11.8): “‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.
- Translated: ““It is peaceful, it is serene, the expelling of all sankhāra, breaking of bonds, removing greed and hate; Nibbāna”. So, it is quite clear that by stopping all sankhāra one attains Nibbāna.
- You may want to re-read the posts: "Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna" Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57), and "Vinnana and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppada" Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).


7. However, a distinction needs to be made between sankhāra and abhisankhāra. The prefix “abhi” means “stronger” or “coarse”.

- Sankhāra involves EVERYTHING that we do to live in “this world” of 31 realms; these include breathing, walking, eating, pretty much everything. Even an Arahant has to be engaged in sankhāra until Parinibbāna or death.
- Sankhāra become abhisankhāra by engaging in the “wheeling process”; see, “Nibbāna – Is it Difficult to Understand?“. The sansāric process or the rebirth process is fueled by abhisankhāra.

8. The bad things we acquire – with lōbha (greed), dōsa (hate), mōha (delusion) – contribute to rebirth in lower four realm; these are apunnābhisankhāra (or apunna abhisankhāra). Here “apunna” means “immoral”.

- The good things we acquire via alōbha, adōsa, amōha help gain rebirth in humān realm and above; these are punnābhisankhāra (or punna abhisankhāra). Here “punna” means “moral”.
- Thus, both kinds contribute to lengthening the rebirth process, but we DO need to do punnābhisankhāra for two reasons: (i) it prevents us from doing bad things, (ii) done with right intention, it will help purify our minds, i.e., punna kamma can become kusala kamma; see #18 below.

9. Another important term is “sammā“, which comes from “san” + “mā“, which means “to become free of san“. Here “mā“, means “becomes free of”. For example:

Mā hoti jati, jati“, means “may I be free of repeated birth”.
mā mé bāla samāgamō” means “may I be free of association with those who are ignorant of Dhammā”.

10. The key word sanditthikō comes from san + ditthi (meaning vision), i.e., ability to see “san” or defrilements.

- One becomes sanditthikō (one who is able to see “san” clearly) at the Sōtapanna Anugāmi stage.
Most texts define sanditthikō with inconsistent words like, self-evident, immediately apparent, visible here and now, etc.

11. Another very important word is saññā which comes from san +ñā (meaning knowing) = knowing or understanding “san”. This actually happens when one attains Nibbāna. Until then the saññā is clouded or distorted.

- When we see people, for example, we identify them according to our familiarity with them or based on our perceptions of them. We do not “see” the true nature of anything until Nibbāna is attained. Thus it is said that until we attain Nibbāna, we have distorted (vipareetha) saññā.
- Don’t worry about some of these deeper meanings, if you are not familiar with them. At least one is able to see a connection to the root word “san“.

12. Sanvara (or samvara) = san + vara, where vara means “remove”. Therefore, sanvara means removing “san” via moral behavior, also called “sila“.

- “Sanvarattena seelan” means moral behavior that comes automatically upon one becoming a Sanditthikō (a Sōtapanna Anugāmi or a Sōtapanna.
- Sanvara sila will be automatically enforced 24 hours a day, not just on specific days, because it comes naturally, with understanding.
- On the other hand, “Yam samādanam tam vatam”, means observing the five precepts or eight precepts on specific days is just a ritual, or “vata”. Such rituals are good starting points, but will be “upgraded to” Sanvara sila when one gains wisdom (paññā).

13. Another key word is sansāra or samsāra, which means “rebirth process”.

- That of course comes from san + sāra, where “sāra” means fruitful. We do “san” willingly because we perceive them to be good (“sāra”), and thus get trapped in the rebirth process.
- Note that sometimes it is natural to pronounce with the “m” sound; that is why it is mostly written “samsāra“; see more example in #15 below.
- We have the wrong perception that “san” are good and fruitful. Thus one continues in the long rebirth process by doing sankhāra (and especially abhisansāra) with the wrong perception that those are fruitful.

14. A nice example to illustrate the significance of “san”, is to examine the verse that Ven. Assaji delivered to Upatissa (the lay name of Ven. Sariputta, who was a chief disciple of the Buddha):

Ye dhammā hetu pabbavā, te san hetun Tathagatho āha, Te san ca yō nirodhō, evam vādi mahā Samanō

Te = three, hetu = cause, pabbava = pa +bhava or “repeated birth” (see, “Pabhassāra Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavanga“, nirōdha = nir+uda = stop from arising.

- The translation is now crystal clear:
All dhammā that give rise to the rebirth process arise due to causes arising from the three “san”s: rāga, dōsa, mōha. The Buddha has shown how to eliminate those “san”s and thus stop such dhammā from arising

- It must be noted that “dhammā” here does not mean Buddha Dhammā, but dhammā in general; see, “What are Dhammā? – A Deeper Analysis“.

15. Knowing the correct meaning of such terms leads to clear understanding of many terms:

- Sangāyanā = san + gāyanā (meaning recite)= recite and categorize “san” (and ways to remove them) in organizing Dhammā for passing down to future generations. The first Sangāyanā was held to systematize his teachings, just 3 months after the Parinibbāna of the Buddha.
- Samyutta Nikāya of the Tipitaka contains suttas that explain “san“: “san” + “yutta“, with “yuatta” meaning “connected with” (it rhymes as “samyutta”). Note that most English translations refer to Samyutta Nikāya as “Connected Discourses, but do not say connected to what.
- Sanvēga (or “samvega”) = san + vēga (meaning speed) = forceful, strong impulses arising due to “san”.
- Sanyōga (or “samyoga“) = san + yōga (meaning bond) = bound together via “san”.
- Sansindheema = san + sindheema (meaning evaporate, remove) = removing san, for example, via the seven steps described in the Sabbāsava Sutta. This leads to nirāmisa sukha or Nibbānic bliss.
- Sansun = san + sun (meaning destroy) = when “san” is removed (“sun” rhymes like soup) one’s mind becomes calm and serene.
- Sancetanā = san + cetanā = defiled intentions.
- Samphassa = san + phassa = defiled sense contact.
Over 70 Pāli words with the “san” root are given at “List of “San” Words and Other Pāli Roots“ at puredhamma.net.

16. We will encounter many such instances, where just by knowing what “san” is, one could immediately grasp the meaning of a certain verse. Most of these terms are easily understood in Sinhala language.

- Contrary to popular belief, it is NOT Sanskrit that is closely related to the māgadhi language that the Buddha spoke, it is Sinhala (or Sinhalese) that is closely related to māgadhi (māgadhi= “maga” + “adhi” = Noble path).

17. Tipitaka was written in Pāli with Sinhala script; Pāli is a version of māgadhi suitable for writing down oral discourses in summary form suitable for transmission; see, “Preservation of the Dhamma“ at puredhamma.net. More posts on that at the “Historical Background“ section.

- Each Pāli word is packed with lot of information, and thus commentaries were written to expound the meaning of important Pāli words.
- A good example is the key Pāli word “anicca“. In Sanskrit it is “anitya“, and this is what normally translated to English as “impermanence”. But the actual meaning of anicca is very clear when one realizes that the Pāli word “icca” (pronounced “ichcha”) means “this is what I like”. Thus anicca has the opposite meaning (“na” + “icca“) or “cannot keep it the way I like”; see, “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“.

18. One is bound to this world of 31 realms because one has not removed the tendency to do dasa akusala. This can be stated in various ways: one’s gati, āsava, anusaya, samyōjana, etc; see, “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna“ at puredhamma.net.

- As long as one has any types of gati, āsava, anusaya, samyōjana, one has the ability to pile up more “san” or to do dasa akusala.
- Once one removes the strongest of the dasa akusala (and especially the 10 types of micchā ditthi), one will be able to grasp the Tilakkhana.
- Then one’s punna kamma will become kusala kamma, leading to the four stages of Nibbāna. This is a subtle point, but is explained in simple terms in the post, “Can or Should a Lay Follower Eliminate Sensual Desires?” published September 26, 2018 (p. 33).

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:33 am

Greetings,
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:40 am
What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)

1. A key Pāli word, the meaning of which has been hidden for thousands of years, is “san” (pronounced like son). “San’ is basically the term for “good and bad things we acquire” through our moral/immoral deeds.

-By understanding this root word, one can clearly see the meanings of many important Pāli words, without looking for roots in Sanskrit.
Hold up a minute Lal... do you have anything to substantiate this?

I thought the sam/san/saŋ meant something more like "(together) with". (examples).

I'm not saying that what you're saying and what I'm saying are diametrically opposed, but I think you're taking some creative liberties in your rendering and subsequent conclusions...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:48 am

Paul said:
I thought the sam/san/saŋ meant something more like "(together) with"
It is. "San" means a bit more than "together" (which is similar to "adding"): It should really be "adding defilements (those that lengthen samsara or the rebirth process)".

I looked at your link. I did not see "together with" (or "adding") there. But that is roughly right. If you look at the analysis of all the "san" words I analyzed, you should be able to see more clarity with my interpretation.

The key to Nibbana is to stop "adding" bad things to the mind (with abhisankhara).

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:47 am

this thread is repeating itself once again
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:18 pm
Hi Rajitha,

I am posting my reply here as it's not really relevant to Binocular's "Courage in the Case of Versatility" thread.
Dhammanando wrote:
rajitha7 wrote:Would you be able to show the 3 the most significant errors you find there, please?
My allotted internet time for today is almost up. I may return to the subject tomorrow, but I don’t promise.
So now I’ll return to the subject, though not in the way that you request. Instead I propose to take a close look at just one randomly selected page from the Pure Dhamma website. (Actually I started out by randomly selecting *three* pages, intending to comment on all of them, but there were so many mistakes on just the first one that I've decided to call it a day).

The page in question purports to be about the meaning of the saṃ part of the word saṃsāra and is found in a section of the website ominously entitled “Key Dhamma Concepts that have Been Hidden”. :spy:

The article opens with the exciting revelation of a Pali term whose meaning has allegedly been "hidden for thousands of years" but has now been rediscovered.
:woohoo:
Pure Dhamma wrote:1. A key word, the meaning of which has been hidden for thousands of years, is “san” (pronounced like son).
Sad to say, saṃ is actually one of the most common prefixes in Pali and Sanskrit, as well as in many modern Indian languages. There is no mystery to the word at all. Functionally it’s simply the Indic equivalent of the Latin “com-”. Its range of meanings in both Pali and Sanskrit is well-known and well-documented and at no time has its meaning been “hidden”.

However, by asserting that the meaning of some key Pali term has been hidden or lost or misunderstood by lesser mortals, messianic revisionist Theravadins grant themselves the luxury of assigning whatever new meaning they like to it...
Pure Dhamma wrote:“San’ is basically the term for “good and bad things we acquire” while we exist anywhere in the 31 realms; see, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma“.
Not according to the texts, which consistently explain saṃ in the noun saṃsāra and in the verb saṃsarati as being a term used in the sense of abbocchinnaṃ, an adverb meaning ‘continuously’ or ‘without interruption’. For example:
  • Khandhānañ’ ca paṭipāṭi, dhātu-āyatanāna ca,
    Abbocchinnaṃ vattamānā, saṃsāro’ ti pavuccatī ti.


    The process of the aggregates, elements and bases,
    Proceeding without interruption is called ‘saṃsāra’.
    (DA. ii. 496)
Pure Dhamma wrote:2. There is also a reason for calling what we “pile up” as “san“. In Pali and Sinhala, the word for numbers is “sankhyä“, and sankhyä = “san” + “khyä“, meaning (add &multiply) + (subtract & divide), i.e., sankhya is what is used for addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. From this, “san” gives the idea of “piling up” (addition and multiplication); “khyä” gives the idea of “removal” (subtraction and division).

Therefore “san” is used to indicate things we do in the sansaric journey; see below for examples.
It’s correct that the saṃ- in saṃsāra and the saṅ- in saṅkhyā are one and the same verbal prefix. But from their sharing of the same prefix it doesn’t follow that the meaning of saṃsāra can be derived from the meaning of saṅkhyā.

We wouldn’t say, for example, that the meaning of ‘transport’ can be inferred from the meaning of ‘transgender’, or that the meaning of ‘confetti’ can shed light on the meaning of ‘community’ just because the two items in each pair happen to share the same Latin prefixes.
Pure Dhamma wrote:“Khyä” or “Khaya” is used to indicate removal. Nibbana is attained via removal of defilements (raga, dosa, moha), and thus Nibbana is “ragakkhaya“, “dosakkhaya“, and “mohakkhaya“.
Etymologically there is no connection between the -khyā in saṅkhyā and the khaya in rāgakkhaya. One is derived from the verb saṅkhāyati (to count or calculate) and the other from the verb khayati (to wither). The disparateness of the two can be seen even more starkly in Sanskrit, where their respective cognates are saṅkhāyati and kṣinoti.

Like ‘dick’ and ‘dyke’ or ‘blob’ and ‘bulb’, khaya and khyā are unrelated words that just happen to share two consonants.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Just by knowing this, it is possible to understand the roots of many common words, such as sankhara, sansara, sanna, samma, etc. Let us analyze some of these words.
The writer seems to be confusing roots (dhātu) and prefixes (upasagga). Saṅkhāra, saṃsāra, and saññā all share the prefix saṃ. But their roots — and it is these, not the prefixes that are the primary source of a Pali word’s meaning — are √khar (= Skt. kṛ), √sar (= sṛ), and √ñā (= jñā) respectively.

As for sammā, this is an indeclinable particle (nipāta) and as such has no verbal root and no relationship whatever with the three nouns.
Pure Dhamma wrote:4. Another important term “samma” which comes from “san” + “mä“, which means “to become free of san“. For example:

“Mä hoti jati, jati“, means “may I be free of repeated birth”.
The word is a prohibitive particle (“Don’t!” Let it not!”). It’s also an indeclinable, which means it’s neither reducible nor modifiable nor combinable with other words. Indeclinables are to Pali philology what inert gases are to chemistry. As such it has no more to do with the sound in sammā than it does with the sound in Māra or marble or marzipan or Margate or Marlene Dietrich. It just happens to sound the same.
Pure Dhamma wrote:5. Knowing the correct meaning of such terms, leads to clear understanding of many terms:
Indeed. And like so many things in this world, the correct meaning is not arrived at merely by wishing it were so.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Sansära (or samsara) = san + sära (meaning fruitful) = perception that “san” are good, fruitful. Thus one continues in the long rebirth process with the wrong perception that it is fruitful.
The sāra in saṃsāra doesn’t mean fruitful. In the Suttas the Buddha connects the noun saṃsāra with the verb saṃsarati. This verb’s primary meaning is to repeatedly come (or go) somewhere or to wander or move about continuously. From this we get the secondary meaning, to transmigrate.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Sammä = san + mä (meaning eliminate) = eliminate or route out “san”. Thus Samma Ditthi is routing out the wrong views that keeps one bound to sansara.
No, this is both etymologically wrong and factually wrong as to what sammādiṭṭhi is. What the writer is describing is diṭṭhujukamma, the action of straightening of one’s views. If one is successful at this then sammādiṭṭhi is the result.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Sandittiko = san + ditthi (meaning vision) = ability to see “san”; one becomes sanditthiko at the Sotapanna stage. Most texts define sandittiko with inconsistent words like, self-evident, immediately apparent, visible here and now, etc.
There are two traditional etymologies for sandiṭṭhiko, one of which gives rise to the translation “to be seen by oneself” and the other to translations like “self-evident”. But regardless of which of these one prefers, the term is one of the special qualities of the Dhamma, not of any person. And so to speak of somebody “becoming” sandiṭṭhiko at the sotāpanna stage is nonsensical.
Pure Dhamma wrote:6. A nice example to illustrate the significance of “san”, is to examine the verse that Ven. Assaji delivered to Upatissa (the lay name of Ven. Sariputta, who was a chief disciple of the Buddha):

“Ye dhamma hetu pabbava, te san hetun Thathagatho aha, Te san ca yo nirodho, evan vadi maha Samano”

Te = three, hetu = cause, nirodha = nir+uda = stop from arising

The translation is now crystal clear:

“All dhamma (in this world) arise due to causes arising from the three “san”s: raga, dosa, moha. The Buddha has shown how to eliminate those “san”s and thus stop dhamma from arising”
This part is the clearest evidence so far that the author is attempting to explain points of Pali without having learned anything of the language at all. The word tesaṃ is simply the demonstrative pronoun te (‘this’, ‘that’) in the genitive plural case. It means “of these”, “of those”. The saṃ part is an inflectional ending (vibhatti). It has absolutely nothing to do with the prefix saṃ in saṃsāra.
Pure Dhamma wrote:7. [...]

Each Pali word is packed with lot of information, and thus commentaries were written to expound the meaning of important Pali words.

A good example is the key Pali word “anicca“. In Sanskrit it is “anitya“, and this is what normally translated to English as “impermanence”. But the actual meaning of anicca is very clear in Sinhala: The Pali word “icca” (pronounced “ichcha”) is the same in Sinhala, with the idea of “this is what I like”. Thus anicca has the meaning “cannot keep it the way I like”.
The nicca in anicca has nothing to do with the adjective iccha (wishing) or the noun icchā (a wish) or the verb icchati (to wish).

The colloquial Sinhala pronunciation of it is actually a mispronunciation when judged by the phonetic descriptions in the ancient Pali grammars. When Sri Lankans pronounce Pali words their commonest mistake is to make aspirated consonants into non-aspirates and non-aspirated consonants into aspirates. This can be seen in the unorthodox romanization system used at the Pure Dhamma site:

gathi instead of gati
hethu-pala instead of hetu-phala.
micca-ditthi instead of micchā-diṭṭhi
satipattana instead of satipaṭṭhāna
Etc., etc.

By contrast, this is the international standard used by indologists for over a century:
  • ක ඛ ග ඝ ඞ
    ka, kha, ga, gha, ṅa

    ච ඡ ජ ඣ ඤ
    ca, cha, ja, jha, ña

    ට ඨ ඩ ඪ ණ
    ṭa, ṭha, ḍa, ḍha, ṇa

    ත ථ ද ධ න
    ta, tha, da, dha, na

    ප ඵ බ භ ම
    pa, pha, ba, bha, ma

    ය ර ල ව ස හ ළ ං
    ya, ra, la, va, sa, ha, ḷa, ṃ

Conclusion

The Pure Dhamma website offers a variety of revisionist readings of the Pali Suttas based upon the site-owner’s (or his guru’s) claimed re-discovery of supposed hidden meanings of key Pali terms.
These proposed hidden meanings, when not presented merely as bald assertions, are defended by resort to Pali philological analysis.
But since the site-owner is demonstrably incompetent in both Indic philology in general and Pali in particular his arguments are undeserving of credence. Rather than leading to the true understanding of the Dhamma via the revelation of higher (but long-concealed) meanings, they lead only to baloney.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:14 am

Greetings Rightviewftw,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention...
Pure Dhamma wrote:1. A key word, the meaning of which has been hidden for thousands of years, is “san” (pronounced like son).
Dhammanando wrote:Sad to say, saṃ is actually one of the most common prefixes in Pali and Sanskrit, as well as in many modern Indian languages. There is no mystery to the word at all. Functionally it’s simply the Indic equivalent of the Latin “com-”. Its range of meanings in both Pali and Sanskrit is well-known and well-documented and at no time has its meaning been “hidden”.
... and the latin "com" seems to line up pretty nicely with my English "(together) with"

I won't go as far with my criticism as Ven. Dhammanando did, as I'm not qualified to do so, but I don't see any value in this creative revisionism and extrapolism, which is at odds with that which is far more straightforward and cogent.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sad to say, saṃ is actually one of the most common prefixes in Pali and Sanskrit, as well as in many modern Indian languages. There is no mystery to the word at all. Functionally it’s simply the Indic equivalent of the Latin “com-”. Its range of meanings in both Pali and Sanskrit is well-known and well-documented and at no time has its meaning been “hidden”.
What is sad is that Dhammanando does not know what is meant by vinnana, sankhara, sanna, etc etc. If he does, he should explain in detail the key verse given below which describes how the "whole mass suffering" arises with avijja, sankhara, and vinnana. He should also describe in detail how mere phassa (contact) can lead to "samphassa ja vedana", the difference between bhava and jati, etc., etc.,

In the Mahā­hatthi­pa­dopa­ma Sutta (MN 28), the Buddha says:
Yō paticcasamuppādam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yō Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppādam passati


Translated:
One who sees paticcasamuppāda
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppāda.
.

I have described those key terms in detail within the past few months and now posted this description in this thread for the first time to show the clear connection to "san".

One acts with avijja and does sankhara (san + khara), which lead to a defiled mindest (vinnana). That is the cause for all future suffering as I explained in the post: "Where in Suttas Say That Viññāna Is Defiled Consciousness?" Jan 08, 2019, p. 59:

"Avijjāya tveva asesa­virāga­nirodhā saṅ­khā­ra­nirodho; saṅ­khā­ra­nirodhā viññāṇanirodho; viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpa­nirodho; nāmarūpa­nirodhā saḷāya­tana­nirodho; saḷāya­tana­nirodhā phassanirodho; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho; vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho; taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho; upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho; bhavanirodhā jātinirodho; jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ soka­pari­deva­duk­kha­do­manas­supāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa duk­khak­khan­dhassa nirodho hotī”ti. - Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)

Which means:
But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA; with the cessation of (ABHI)SANKHARA, cessation of DEFILED consciousness; with the cessation of DEFILED consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six AYATANA; with the cessation of the six AYATANA, cessation of SAMPHASSA (SAN +PHASSA); with the cessation of SAMPHASSA, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence (BHAVA); with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth (JATI); with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”

I have explained in detail all those key terms marked in capital letters. Those who can see these deep connections can benefit.

According to the wrong translations by Dhammanando and others, one's consciousness would cease when attaining the Arahanthood (viññāṇanirodho)!

Those who do not see the correct explanations can choose to just disregard. As I said many times, there are enough "echo chambers" to keep repeating the same over and over. Just leave others to make up their own minds.
Last edited by Lal on Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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