why is vipassanā called meditation

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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salayatananirodha
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why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 am

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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JamesTheGiant
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:18 am

Okay. I've read that. And? What's your point? Single line topic, no explanation.Grrrrr!
Last edited by JamesTheGiant on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by dylanj » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:22 am

1) what is the role of vitakka & vicara in the first jhana? what is it used for?
2) does samadhi perfectly equate to meditation?
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:58 am

Samatha and vipassana are actually mental qualities, and not methods.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:41 am

I felt like I had some kind of point here, but it either was not a point or it slipped my mind.
Well, you need jhānas to attain nibbāna, the buddha confirms this somewhere in the first fifty suttas of majjhima nikāya as I recall.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Benjamin
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by Benjamin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:00 am

Many practitioners seem to focus their practice in one of several ways:


1) Focusing on Jhana for formal sittings, and doing a looser "Vipassana" practice the rest of the day.

(Maybe this usage of Vipassana means noting or labelling, or just breath awareness, but it seems like many call this Vipassana simply because it's a practice done when there are more distractions, i.e in daily life.)

2) Focusing on Jhana as often as possible, and still holding onto concentration as often as remembered. (Is this really different than the above? I think it may be semantic.)

3) Aiming for a Vipassana practice all the time. Basically, this could mean noting 24/7, or even just a practice of bare attention.

In my view option 1 and 2 are not really that different, and more in line with the suttas, but only if option 3 insists that it doesn't have Jhana in it. I personally think that the Mahasi style practice or other "Vipassana" practices can still cultivate enough concentration to be supported by suttas, but it depends on one's interpretation I suppose.
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by bodom » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:11 am

You cannot separate samatha from vipassana. They are to be developed as a pair. One may be developed more at the expense of the other but they must ultimately come together and be balanced as one:
We sit in meditation to establish peacefulness and cultivate mental energy. We don't do it in order to play around at anything special. Insight meditation is sitting in samādhi itself. At some places they say, ''Now we are going to sit in samādhi, after that we'll do insight meditation.'' Don't divide them like this! Tranquillity is the base which gives rise to wisdom; wisdom is the fruit of tranquillity. To say that now we are going to do calm meditation, later we'll do insight - you can't do that! You can only divide them in speech. Just like a knife, the blade is on one side, the back of the blade on the other. You can't divide them. If you pick up one side you get both sides. Tranquillity gives rise to wisdom like this.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Peace_Beyond1.php

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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:34 am

I think it is because it is supposed to be the way to develop insight as is explained in Samadhi Sutta, a counterpart to the development of tranquility of the mind;
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)

"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?

"There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations.

"These are four types of individuals to be found existing in the world."

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salayatananirodha
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:59 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:11 am
You cannot separate samatha from vipassana. They are to be developed as a pair. One may be developed more at the expense of the other but they must ultimately come together and be balanced as one:
We sit in meditation to establish peacefulness and cultivate mental energy. We don't do it in order to play around at anything special. Insight meditation is sitting in samādhi itself. At some places they say, ''Now we are going to sit in samādhi, after that we'll do insight meditation.'' Don't divide them like this! Tranquillity is the base which gives rise to wisdom; wisdom is the fruit of tranquillity. To say that now we are going to do calm meditation, later we'll do insight - you can't do that! You can only divide them in speech. Just like a knife, the blade is on one side, the back of the blade on the other. You can't divide them. If you pick up one side you get both sides. Tranquillity gives rise to wisdom like this.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Peace_Beyond1.php

:namaste:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Benjamin
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by Benjamin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:11 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:11 am
You cannot separate samatha from vipassana. They are to be developed as a pair. One may be developed more at the expense of the other but they must ultimately come together and be balanced as one:
Would you argue that Mahasi Sayadaw and others who seem to have taught "the development of Vipassana at the expense of samatha" (to paraphrase your wording) were ultimately changing their practice later on, or allowing for some sort of balance at a later point? Alternatively, was Mahasi Sayadaw missing something in his practice?

I'm not a follower of his technique per se, and in my opinion meditation is essentially jhanic in nature with insight and concentration being qualities of meditation. Just bringing it up as a typical example of a "Vipassana practice".
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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:17 pm

Benjamin wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:11 am
Would you argue that Mahasi Sayadaw and others who seem to have taught "the development of Vipassana at the expense of samatha" (to paraphrase your wording) were ultimately changing their practice later on, or allowing for some sort of balance at a later point? Alternatively, was Mahasi Sayadaw missing something in his practice?
As I've said before, my opinion is that approaches like Mahasi and U Ba Khin/Goenka are actually examples of developing both together.

The difficulty that plagues all of these discussions is the definition of jhana. If one uses a "deep absorption" definition (Visudhimagga/Brahm/Sujato/Analayo), where insight practice is only possible after emerging from the absorption, then that's very different from the "light" definitions (where it is said to be possible to do insight practice within jhana). If one has the "light" definition of jhana then the difference between "jhana practice" and "vipassana practice" is not so great.

When Mahasi and related teachers talk about jhana they are using the "deep" (Visudhimagga) definition. And it's not that they are against such practice, simply that such deep jhana takes some time to develop.

See, for example: http://buddhanet.net/imol/vipcours.htm
Specifically: http://buddhanet.net/vmed_1.htm
Chanmyay Sayadaw wrote: So Vipassana meditation is of two types: The first, Vipassana meditation, insight meditation is preceded by Samatha meditation. The second is the pure Vipassana meditation or insight meditation not preceded by Samatha meditation. The first type of Vipassana meditation or Insight Meditation is practised by those who have ample time to devote to their meditation. They have to spend maybe three or four months on Samatha meditation. And when they are satisfied with their attainment of jhana concentration they proceed with Vipassana meditation.

Pure Vipassana meditation is practised by those who haven't enough time to devote to their meditation like yourselves, because you do not have three or four months or six months or a year for your meditation. So you can spend about ten days on your meditation. For such meditators pure Vipassana meditation is suitable. ...

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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by budo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:49 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:58 am
Samatha and vipassana are actually mental qualities, and not methods.
If you read the vimuttimagga, jhana is defined as meditation.

According Santideva, insight can only happen in or after first jhana. And Santideva says you cannot attain insight without at least first dhayna (jhana).

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Re: why is vipassanā called meditation

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:24 pm

Its a huge misconception that the Mahasi method is somehow void of teaching jhanas.

With people like Analayo making this claim its obvious that many people will assume this to be true.
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