Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by auto » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:03 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:47 am
NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:32 am
...anyone?
I think this report is difficult for people to comment on, because of the difficulties involved in communicating online, especially regarding subjective experiences. The best I can say is that powerful and apparently meaningful experiences do occur for many people during meditation. They are quite common, although they differ because our individual circumstances and kamma are all different.

I wouldn't dwell too much upon the actual experience itself. If the insights you appear to have gained are useful ones which make you happier, and more dispassionate, then count your blessings and continue with the practice. Don't expect more of the same, but just continue with the expectation that good mental qualities are worth pursuing and dwelling on. If, however, you feelings are worse or less useful, then try to develop something within the practice which makes you more confident.

It might help people to comment if you say a bit more about the type of practice you are doing. If you can get some face-to-face time with a good teacher, then that would almost certainly be beneficial. If not, then don't practice intensively without monitoring carefully how it affects you, and whether you are going in the right direction. Keep going, keep alert and confident, and have compassion for yourself.
I see. Thank you for your reply. This has been the fourth major shift in the space of one year so something quite interesting is happening. The insights are very useful, very big and life-changing. They've been happening for a year also and getting deeper.

I practice 70 minutes per day meditation - my meditation has changed over the past year from mindfulness of breathing to meditating on nothing. It seems to have evolved into this. This means I have no object anymore, there is just mind and focus. Throughout the day I practice Satipatthana.

Yes, I am very happy. Many of my problematic thought processes had fallen away in April this year when I couldn't find a reference for who I was.
When you have just mind and focus, ok. But from that point could you focus on an object? Then can you describe is it different from regular observing? and could you see how you arrive at an object and discernment happen?

NuanceOfSuchness
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:24 pm

auto wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:03 pm

When you have just mind and focus, ok. But from that point could you focus on an object? Then can you describe is it different from regular observing? and could you see how you arrive at an object and discernment happen?
Yes, when it calls upon and given the conditions I'll spend the first 5 or 10 minutes on breath sensation moving through the nose, whole body breathing or diaphragmatic breathing. I first seat myself in whole body awareness and find the pleasant sensation. This pleasant sensation is used as a kind of substrate to deeper levels of concentration. I did go through a few months of being attached to these pleasant sensations last year but I was able to move through them far quicker by overlaying knowledge of the three marks of existence. Therefore, they arise, abide and disperse and attachment to anything with those qualities creates various degrees of unsatisfactoriness so I 'use' the pleasant sensation as a disposable tool to go deeper.

When the object is stable, it drops away and there is just meditating. In fact, that's not entirely true, there isn't meditating and there is nobody meditating - it's just called meditating but for the sake of conventional communication we have to use conceptual language.

Often I can seem to bypass the object altogether and go straight into mind-focus. I haven't always been able to do this. I worked very hard - not the kind of hardness that's attributed to strain but a gentle effort, a kind effort conducive to the practice at hand. All expectations had to be removed. I learned about the hindrances and watched for them very carefully.

It is now different from regular observing. Let's take the object of the breath moving in and out of the nostrils. This is boring. It's the same repetitive thing over and over again... but it's not! I now observe that each and every in-breath is different; each and every out-breath is different. Even more interesting, the knowing (being conscious - the aggregate 'viññāṇa') of the in-breath and out-breath also is different. Moreover, the finer constituents contained within each in-breath and out-breath are different and likewise for the knowing of those finer components of the breath. There seems to be ever more resolution and detail as one descends deeper.

Seeing the aggregate of viññāṇa operate in this way has been quite elusive for me so I'm very pleased to have my own direct observation of this particular phenomenon and at this incredible depth. Still, with mindfulness, I strive on!
Last edited by NuanceOfSuchness on Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NuanceOfSuchness
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:36 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:04 pm

Though I had no intention to continue in this post, something compels me. And that is " that the knowledge that rebirth has ended". Rebirth at times seem to give a wrong indication of the fact that we beings are a continuation in samsara.
There can be a lot of positive energy in 'compelling' mind states. Direct it towards practice.


auto
Posts: 1170
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Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by auto » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:24 pm
auto wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:03 pm

When you have just mind and focus, ok. But from that point could you focus on an object? Then can you describe is it different from regular observing? and could you see how you arrive at an object and discernment happen?
Yes, when it calls upon and given the conditions I'll spend the first 5 or 10 minutes on breath sensation moving through the nose, whole body breathing or diaphragmatic breathing. I first seat myself in whole body awareness and find the pleasant sensation. This pleasant sensation is used as a kind of substrate to deeper levels of concentration. I did go through a few months of being attached to these pleasant sensations last year but I was able to move through them far quicker by overlaying knowledge of the three marks of existence. Therefore, they arise, abide and disperse and attachment to anything with those qualities creates various degrees of unsatisfactoriness so I 'use' the pleasant sensation as a disposable tool to go deeper.

When the object is stable, it drops away and there is just meditating. In fact, that's not entirely true, there isn't meditating and there is nobody meditating - it's just called meditating but for the sake of conventional communication we have to use conceptual language.

Often I can seem to bypass the object altogether and go straight into mind-focus. I haven't always been able to do this. I worked very hard - not the kind of hardness that's attributed to strain but a gentle effort, a kind effort conducive to the practice at hand. All expectations had to be removed. I learned about the hindrances and watched for them very carefully.

It is now different from regular observing. Let's take the object of the breath moving in and out of the nostrils. This is boring. It's the same repetitive thing over and over again... but it's not! I now observe that each and every in-breath is different; each and every out-breath is different. Even more interesting, the knowing (being conscious - the aggregate 'viññāṇa') of the in-breath and out-breath also is different. Moreover, the finer constituents contained within each in-breath and out-breath are different and likewise for the knowing of those finer components of the breath. There seems to be ever more resolution and detail as one descends deeper.

Seeing the aggregate of viññāṇa operate in this way has been quite elusive for me so I'm very pleased to have my own direct observation of this particular phenomenon and at this incredible depth. Still, with mindfulness, I strive on!
i think what you are suggesting is that you have had fruition/phala of a path. And the mind-focus you call fruition?
it could be.

NuanceOfSuchness
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:11 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 pm

i think what you are suggesting is that you have had fruition/phala of a path. And the mind-focus you call fruition?
it could be.
Yes, possibly. I'm not one for adhering to maps but they're helpful as a general overview of what might be happening. There has been a drop or a falling away of something then further realizations in the form of 'knowings'. With those realizations comes astonishing clarity of the path. The four noble truths become strikingly clear. I haven't listed all these knowings here just part of them. This would be the fourth major shift in about 16 months where similar things have occurred afterwards. The main thing to highlight here is that suffering or stress has reduced substantially. It is still there so I'm more interested in a permanent shift in consciousness if that is at all possible.

Just an extra: Things really started to move for me when I began practicing Satipatthana diligently throughout the day. My Satipatthana practice is now very rich and incorporates many of the components from all of the great frames of reference. This is where I believe the bulk of the progress has been achieved. How so? When I first began meditating two years ago I would get flashes of insight and it quickly dawned on me that I could be doing this for decades and barely get anywhere. I searched the suttas and this is how I found Satipatthana. It bridges the huge gap between 70 minute meditation sessions and real life. Meditation and Satipatthana coupled together work symbiotically with a high degree of potency. All of the major teachings seem to be contained in that sutta.

auto
Posts: 1170
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by auto » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:13 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:11 pm
auto wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 pm

i think what you are suggesting is that you have had fruition/phala of a path. And the mind-focus you call fruition?
it could be.
Yes, possibly. I'm not one for adhering to maps but they're helpful as a general overview of what might be happening. There has been a drop or a falling away of something then further realizations in the form of 'knowings'. With those realizations comes astonishing clarity of the path. The four noble truths become strikingly clear. I haven't listed all these knowings here just part of them. This would be the fourth major shift in about 16 months where similar things have occurred afterwards. The main thing to highlight here is that suffering or stress has reduced substantially. It is still there so I'm more interested in a permanent shift in consciousness if that is at all possible.

Just an extra: Things really started to move for me when I began practicing Satipatthana diligently throughout the day. My Satipatthana practice is now very rich and incorporates many of the components from all of the great frames of reference. This is where I believe the bulk of the progress has been achieved. How so? When I first began meditating two years ago I would get flashes of insight and it quickly dawned on me that I could be doing this for decades and barely get anywhere. I searched the suttas and this is how I found Satipatthana. It bridges the huge gap between 70 minute meditation sessions and real life. Meditation and Satipatthana coupled together work symbiotically with a high degree of potency. All of the major teachings seem to be contained in that sutta.
Did you do semi-manually something to cause the drop? felt intuitively that its right thing to try taking both sides of a brain(the seeing faculty) into one focus and that resulted in a mind dropping off?
Or are you watching phenomena as they rise in your sense-doors and the "seeing phenomena" is one of the condition for effects to happen and then insights rise?

it could be one and the same but descriptions are different.

NuanceOfSuchness
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Into The Stream with Sensual Desires...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:22 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:13 pm

Did you do semi-manually something to cause the drop? felt intuitively that its right thing to try taking both sides of a brain(the seeing faculty) into one focus and that resulted in a mind dropping off?
Or are you watching phenomena as they rise in your sense-doors and the "seeing phenomena" is one of the condition for effects to happen and then insights rise?

it could be one and the same but descriptions are different.
That's a very interesting question. The sudden drops occur from the result of a culmination of prolonged and sustained practice. You cannot practice part-time and expect quick results or to put it another way: you cannot meditate 1 hour daily and return back to samsaric living - the heat from the practice dissipates quickly. Satipatthana helps to keep that heat glowing. I observe that it has to be prolonged and sustained; daily and as often as you can remember throughout the day. There's always an opportunity to practice Satipatthana. This is tricky in the beginning as mind will pull you back into lower mundane levels of awareness.

With this recent drop I can explain what I was doing specifically in meditation but I think it's largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of the practice. I was cycling through the primary elements: "here in my body there is water" and so on. It's probably important to mention that I wasn't using words in the session, just a gentle low level processing - almost intuitive or semi-manually as you describe. Interestingly, this is something I rarely do in meditation. The session began with watching thoughts pass by. I'm not sure why I chose to cycle through the elements at that particular time perhaps as you describe it may have been an intuitive action. It's possible that that was what was needed to push me off the edge I'm not sure. In summary, it didn't make sense to me to know that I could intrinsically define a psychological character from the four primary elements; the same primary elements that seem to make up all other rupa. I couldn't find a sense of me-ness in it all.

As the funneling sensation came to me my physiology changed. My heart was thumping through my chest and my breathing was very heavy. Fear descended over me. At that point the Assu sutta flashed in my mind and in one thought moment there was instant comprehension of that entire sutta thus followed a recognition that I must settle into an equanimous mind set in order to pass through this.

Most of my watching phenomena though six-sense bases occurs outside of meditation in Satipatthana.

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