The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Virgo
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Virgo » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:41 pm

freedom wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:07 am

Thanks, but I did not ask how or if it is contaminated. I asked if it is permanent or not? (Consciousness, pure consciousness, vinnana, thought, awareness, now is citta,... what else?)

If it (citta?) is impermanent, is it suffering or not?

I hope that my questions are clear enough.
On citta:

http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-03.htm

Kevin...
The Hunger Site

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freedom
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:56 pm

I will try to summarize what you and Lal said...
kstan1122 and Lal wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:13 am
There is no vinnana (defiled thought) in an Arahant.
Citta can be defined as ‘consciousness of the senses’ or ‘awareness of an object’...
Citta is that which is conscious of objects all the times. This nature of awareness of objects is called consciousness...It means ability to take in objects through sense organs...
This citta is a continuous stream, and for every sense input event, it has seventeen thought moment and each thought moment has three sub-moments of arising, presence, and dissolution ==> so you may take this thought moment as being impermanent. When there is no sense input, bhavanga (life continuum) will takes its place. Only when a person is dead then will the citta stop...
A citta alone cannot gives a person suffering...
A living Arahant would have undefiled consciousness or a pure consciousness that is without any greed, hate, ignorance...
As I understand, those above are your views. It seems to me that you think an arahant has citta (pure consciousness), and this citta is permanent(?) even if it has three sub-moments of arising, presence, and dissolution for each thought moment (we may take this thought moment as being impermanent - not the cita) because the citta will re-appear in a continuous stream.

Hope that I do not misunderstand what you said (If there is, please correct me).

I will try to limit my question so that it is easier to follow...

As you said "Citta can be defined as ‘consciousness of the senses", so it depends on the senses. Therefore, we can say it is conditioned by the senses. Base on your view above, even if it is conditioned and dependently arisen by the senses, it will not give rise to suffering ???. However, I remember that "all conditioned things are unsatisfactory". How do you explain this?


A living arahant has undefiled consciousness or a pure consciousness (citta). Do you mean citta is the mind of the arahant per your view?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:28 am

The references given by Sam Vara are standard English texts on Vinnana. We all know about those. They all say vinnana is consciousness.

For example, his first reference:
Viññāṇa
neuter
(as special term in Buddhist metaphysics) a mental quality as a constituent of individuality, the bearer of (individual) life, life-force (as extending also over rebirths), principle of conscious life, general consciousness (as function of mind and matter), regenerative force animation, mind as transmigrant, as transforming (according to individual kamma) one individual life (after death) into the next. (See also below, c & d). In this (fundamental) application it may be characterized as the sensory and perceptive activity commonly expressed by “mind.”

Can we learn anything from that description? Furthermore, it is the same wrong view held by bhikkhu Sati on vinnana as transmigrating in MN 36, as I pointed out in the last post .

But as I have explained vinnana is more than consciousness, per my last post: "Vinnana – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations", Dec 21, 2018 (p. 55).

As I also pointed out, if vinnana is just consciousness, an Arahant would lose consciousness when attaining the Arahant stage, because Nibbana is vinnana nirodha or the “cessation of vinnana”.
- See, "Paticca samuppada vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2)" posted on Dec 19, 2018 (p. 54).

freedom said: "As I understand, those above are your views.."

Those are not our views. Those are in the suttas and in Abhidhamma.

Anyway, if you cannot comprehend or do not want to try to understand, you can just stop reading my posts. If you are happy with your explanations, that is fine with me. I don't come to other threads and make comments. I post on this thread to provide a different point-of-view (based totally on the Tipitaka) for those who are interested. However, I will respond to any legitimate questions.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:59 am

Hah! How quickly you, Samvara, are discarded as someone worthy of speaking to with basic respect.

You clearly shouldn't have questioned.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:18 am

Lal wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:28 am
freedom said: "As I understand, those above are your views.."

Those are not our views. Those are in the suttas and in Abhidhamma.

Anyway, if you cannot comprehend or do not want to try to understand, you can just stop reading my posts. If you are happy with your explanations, that is fine with me. I don't come to other threads and make comments. I post on this thread to provide a different point-of-view (based totally on the Tipitaka) for those who are interested. However, I will respond to any legitimate questions.
Don't worry, I will not question you any further. You can do/say what you want.
It is hard to overcome clinging and self-view...
May you be free from suffering.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:36 am

freedom wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:56 pm
As I understand, those above are your views. It seems to me that you think an arahant has citta (pure consciousness), and this citta is permanent(?) even if it has three sub-moments of arising, presence, and dissolution for each thought moment (we may take this thought moment as being impermanent - not the cita) because the citta will re-appear in a continuous stream.

Hope that I do not misunderstand what you said (If there is, please correct me).

I will try to limit my question so that it is easier to follow...

As you said "Citta can be defined as ‘consciousness of the senses", so it depends on the senses. Therefore, we can say it is conditioned by the senses. Base on your view above, even if it is conditioned and dependently arisen by the senses, it will not give rise to suffering ???. However, I remember that "all conditioned things are unsatisfactory". How do you explain this?


A living arahant has undefiled consciousness or a pure consciousness (citta). Do you mean citta is the mind of the arahant per your view?
This citta is a continuous stream, and for every sense input event, it has seventeen thought moment and each thought moment has three sub-moments of arising, presence, and dissolution ==> so you may take this thought moment as being impermanent.
I have put it that citta is a continuous stream with seventeen thought moment for every sense input event and each sub-moment (this sub-moment belongs to the citta of the sense input event) has three sub-moments of arising, presence, and dissolution ==> so you may take this thought moment as being impermanent which means that the citta stream no doubt continuous is also impermanent.
freedom wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:56 pm
However, I remember that "all conditioned things are unsatisfactory". How do you explain this?
"all conditioned things are unsatisfactory" = sabbe sankhara dukkha.
If all sankhara (conditioned things) are dukkha (unsatisfactory), then nobody should ever be happy! But obviously, that is not true. We can have moment of happiness and sadness. So as Lal pointed out in the above post, what is wrong is the interpretation of sankhara which sabbe sankhara dukkha should be sabbe apunna abhisankhara dukkha.

Much metta.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:42 am

Lal wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:28 am
The references given by Sam Vara are standard English texts on Vinnana. We all know about those. They all say vinnana is consciousness.
No, most of them - including the one you quoted - say that the term has a range of different meanings. Viññāna, like a lot of general terms, has a meaning which depends upon context and may well have changed over time. Hamilton even makes the claim that the compilers of the suttas often themselves had no clear idea what it meant.

As such, your definition is one among many. Your original claim was that
no one has explained what is really meant by viññāna in current English texts.
whereas in fact many people (including yourself) have put forward explanations. You might be claiming that everybody else is wrong and only you are right, but that's a different claim.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am

whereas in fact many people (including yourself) have put forward explanations. You might be claiming that everybody else is wrong and only you are right, but that's a different claim.
I think this is at the root of the problem here.

The Buddha discovered everything that has to be learned about the “this world of 31 realms”. Each of us may not fully understand it (Some of you may not even believe in it).
- But it is not a good idea to put each person on the same footing. In order to make progress, one needs to see whose explanations are more compatible with the Tipitaka.

Those of us who have understood that vinnana is more than just consciousness know a lot more about Buddha’s “big picture”. That is not just a claim. It is a claim that can be verified by examining the facts. It can also be verified by experiencing the “true happiness” by following the instructions on how to do Anapana and Satipatthana meditations the correct way. The idea that breath meditation can provide a “long-lasting happiness” is a myth.

On the “theory side’, the only way is to see whose picture is compatible with ALL of the Tipitaka.
- I can and I have pointed out various inconsistencies with the idea that vinnana just means consciousness or awareness. Vinnana is much more than that. This is a core teaching that has a deep connection to Nibbana, the final goal of a Buddhist.
- If you are not willing to see this difference and reject all the evidence that we have put forth, then that is OK. It is up to each person to decide how one wants to move forward.

Even the Buddha was ridiculed in his first few years. But the truth ultimately prevails. We will see whose version of Buddha Dhamma will be prevailing in the coming years. The true Dhamma has been hidden for so many years. But it will not be possible to prevent it from coming back now. The wide and fee availability of information with the internet will assure that.

I have a suggestion that could make this determination a bit more easier for those who are genuinely interested in evaluating who is more on the “right side” per Buddha Dhamma:
- Among the bhikkhus today who communicate in English, Bhikkhu Bodhi comes closest to comprehending the deep Dhamma. I would recommend to read and listen to him. Furthermore, those who are not familiar with Abhidhamma, his book “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” will give an idea of how deep Buddha Dhamma is. However, even Bhikkhu Bodhi has not seen this deep meaning of vinnana. He also translates vinnana as just “consciousness”.

Anyway, I will just proceed with my explanation of sankhara and some related words in the next post. Those who are interested can read. Others can choose to disregard.

auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:21 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am
whereas in fact many people (including yourself) have put forward explanations. You might be claiming that everybody else is wrong and only you are right, but that's a different claim.
I think this is at the root of the problem here.

The Buddha discovered everything that has to be learned about the “this world of 31 realms”. Each of us may not fully understand it (Some of you may not even believe in it).
- But it is not a good idea to put each person on the same footing. In order to make progress, one needs to see whose explanations are more compatible with the Tipitaka.

Those of us who have understood that vinnana is more than just consciousness know a lot more about Buddha’s “big picture”. That is not just a claim. It is a claim that can be verified by examining the facts. It can also be verified by experiencing the “true happiness” by following the instructions on how to do Anapana and Satipatthana meditations the correct way. The idea that breath meditation can provide a “long-lasting happiness” is a myth.

On the “theory side’, the only way is to see whose picture is compatible with ALL of the Tipitaka.
- I can and I have pointed out various inconsistencies with the idea that vinnana just means consciousness or awareness. Vinnana is much more than that. This is a core teaching that has a deep connection to Nibbana, the final goal of a Buddhist.
- If you are not willing to see this difference and reject all the evidence that we have put forth, then that is OK. It is up to each person to decide how one wants to move forward.

Even the Buddha was ridiculed in his first few years. But the truth ultimately prevails. We will see whose version of Buddha Dhamma will be prevailing in the coming years. The true Dhamma has been hidden for so many years. But it will not be possible to prevent it from coming back now. The wide and fee availability of information with the internet will assure that.

I have a suggestion that could make this determination a bit more easier for those who are genuinely interested in evaluating who is more on the “right side” per Buddha Dhamma:
- Among the bhikkhus today who communicate in English, Bhikkhu Bodhi comes closest to comprehending the deep Dhamma. I would recommend to read and listen to him. Furthermore, those who are not familiar with Abhidhamma, his book “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” will give an idea of how deep Buddha Dhamma is. However, even Bhikkhu Bodhi has not seen this deep meaning of vinnana. He also translates vinnana as just “consciousness”.

Anyway, I will just proceed with my explanation of sankhara and some related words in the next post. Those who are interested can read. Others can choose to disregard.
hey if you post and the post is understood what you wrote, what happen then? does one come sotapanna?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:27 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo.
There being an alighting, there is name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
these five are clinging aggregates. Next link is clinging. So aren't that's why aggregates are called clinging?
further text from that quote:
To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'
"And what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with what is not loved is stressful, separation from what is loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful.

In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. This is called the noble truth of stress.
many vinnana. Notice that the vinnana aggregate doesn't have vinnana in it while it itself is vinnana?

any comments?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:35 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am
Those of us who have understood that vinnana is more than just consciousness know a lot more about Buddha’s “big picture”. That is not just a claim. It is a claim that can be verified by examining the facts. It can also be verified by experiencing the “true happiness” by following the instructions on how to do Anapana and Satipatthana meditations the correct way. The idea that breath meditation can provide a “long-lasting happiness” is a myth.
what you mean by just more than a consciousness? you mean like vinnana is also form and feelings?

when you talk about deep Dhamma, what you mean by deep?

deep like: I get feelings from watching a painting, but for a peasant its just a painting a good fire material?

do you mean deep as overcoming form layer and getting into feelings?

(don't bother, its clear you like add long suck talks like your last post(that type of consciousness is to be avoided like daydreaming is to be avoided if want to make progress today in this very moment etc))

i delete posts(those what i can) if you want keep thread clean! i just expected i could find someone who has at elast once burned boredom.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:53 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am
In order to make progress, one needs to see whose explanations are more compatible with the Tipitaka....
On the “theory side’, the only way is to see whose picture is compatible with ALL of the Tipitaka.
There are two pictures or explanations. One (a minority view) is to claim that there is one special meaning for the term viññāṇa which remains the same in every context. The other explanation (a majority view) is that the term viññāṇa has a semantic range, and can mean different things as it is used in different contexts. (That is why the dictionary definitions use a string of phrases, and some of the sources I cited above take a whole chapter and more to discuss the term and its uses).

Without yet deciding which picture or explanation is better, both of these seem to be potentially compatible with all the Tipitaka.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:00 pm

Without yet deciding which picture or explanation is better, both of these seem to be potentially compatible with all the Tipitaka.
The two explanations are: “vinnana is just consciousness” AND “vinnana is consciousness plus future expectations”.

The first part of your statement says no decision can be made yet on which explanation is right, and the second says both explanations are still on the same footing.

That is not true.

In science, when there are two (or more) competing theories, any theory that is shown to have inconsistencies is thrown out. With time, more and more “wrong theories” are thrown out as evidence against them are found. It is called the process of elimination.

I have shown several instances where your explanation is definitely NOT compatible with the Tipitaka.
- On the other hand, there not a single sutta that can contradict my statement: That vinnana is more than just consciousness.
- In fact, it is NECESSARY to explain the phrase, “vinnananassa nirodho is Nibbana”.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:17 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:00 pm
Without yet deciding which picture or explanation is better, both of these seem to be potentially compatible with all the Tipitaka.
The two explanations are: “vinnana is just consciousness” AND “vinnana is consciousness plus future expectations”.
No, they are not. The alternative explanation to yours is the one I have offered, derived from the above post where I provide sources as you requested. It is that "viññāṇa is a word with semantic range such that its meaning depends to some extent on the context where it is used".

Sometimes, viññāṇa might - depending on context - mean "just consciousness", but the claim that it always means that is your claim, not mine. Nobody in the sources I cited is claiming that. It's what is known as a "straw man", and suggests that you are merely rehearsing arguments that you feel comfortable with, rather than dealing with the point that is actually being presented.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:29 pm

Sometimes, viññāṇa might - depending on context - mean "just consciousness"
Yes. That is true ONLY for the vinnana of an Arahant, because vinnana for an Arahant is purified. That is the ONLY context where it means "just cosciousness".

However, “vinnananassa nirodho is Nibbana” ALWAYS holds. An Arahant has attained Nibbana and has purified vinnana.

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