Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

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robertk
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:06 pm

Dhamma talk at Foundation, Nov 24. no 1.translated by nina van gorkom


sujin: Just to understand that all realities are dhamma is not enough, it has to be now.
Khanda: past, present, future . Khanda is what arises and falls away. The Buddha often spoke about upadana-khandha, khanda of grasping.
Q: does this make it harder to understand?
Acharn: No, it makes it clearer. Knowing what is the object of clinging, otherwise one does not know to what one clings. It is a reminder that one clings to what just arises and falls away. Even upadana is not self but it is there, right now, any time when there is no right understanding.
Who knows that there is attachment to seeing right now? If the Buddha had not told us we would not know. So long as there not direct experience of what arises and falls away there are ignorance and attachment. Is it easy to understand seeing as not self? We need patience to listen and consider. Wrong understanding can be eliminated very, very little.
What is intention? We need to understand one word at a time. We have to continue to listen until pañña is so firm that is sacca ñana (understanding the truth, the level of pariyatti. It precedes kicca ñana, direct awareness).
Sati: what is it, we need to know its object. Is there sati now? It arises just with wholesome moments.



*********
Nina.

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robertk
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:11 pm

From nina van gorkom
Dhamma at the Foundation, Dec 1 ’18, No 2.

Acharn:If there is not enough foundation knowledge one may take pañña of the level of pariyatti for right awareness, for vipassana. After being told that seeing is nama and visible object is rupa and then practise vipassana, that is impossible. There is “I” and not the understanding which understands the nature of anattaness.
Q: There must be a point when patipatti starts.
Acharn: By conditions. That is firm confidence in pariyatti. Without it there is no condition for samma-sati of satipatthana which arises as anatta. There is no preparation.
Q: What is the clear distinction (between pariyatti and patipatti).
Acharn: Firm confidence that realities are not self. The truth is when samma-sati arises. It indicates that pariyatti is sufficient to condition that. Without pariyatti you take it for “I”.
Q: Quite subtle.
Acharn: very, very subtle. At the moment of samma-sati pañña knows : that is sati, not “I”, not “I know, I touch, I think.”
There is the letting go of the very firm idea of self from the moment of hearing the truth to the moment of direct understanding.
Patipatti is the moment when samma-sati arises by conditions. There is no idea to have it arise in the room, in darkness, anywhere at all. Just like hearing now, seeing now. It understands what appears by conditions, no one can direct it.
There is no need to measure it, that is “I” who tries. Even the beginning of right thinking is still pariyatti. Samma-sati is the proof of the firm understanding at the level of pariyatti. No need for anyone to tell that that is samma-sati

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:33 am

Last week Sujin Boriharnwanaket was in India with a large group of Thai Buddhists.
By chance they ran into Bhikkhu Bodhi at the Maha Bodhi Vihara.

Here is a recording of the discussion (one hour) with Sujin(age 92) and ven. Bodhi (75).
https://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/ ... -bodhi.mp3

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:22 pm

Here is the transcript of the discusssion with Bodhi and Sujin.
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/156053

discussions between Ajahn Sujin and Bhikkhu Bodhi, 18th Jan 2019.
https://www.dhammastudygroup.org/#2019-01b



0:00

Ajahn Sujin: Is there something to talk about? Abhidhamma or realities ...

Bhikkhu Bodhi: You just continue with what you where saying before.

Ajahn Sujin: At the Foundation, when people come to listen to the teachings, that's on realities right now. Because what is real must be this moment. The past one has gone and the future one hasn't come yet. That's why if there is no understanding, the truth of whatever appears is not realized. That which has to arise appears by conditions. As soon as it has arisen, it falls away in split seconds. So actually, from nothing, there is something, and there is nothing, in samsara, never to return at all. So the moment that can be understood must be this very moment. Realities are very very different. Like seeing performs the functions of seeing. It cannot do anything at all. No one can make it change this function. And seeing is different from hearing. They cannot arise together at all, but arise by different conditions. Seeing arises and falls away so many cittas in between. Hearing arises and falls away. It seems like they arise together, but actually it is impossible. So the world in which we live, in samsara, we live in the world of saññā, memory, just think about that which is seen, but not as it is. The rūpa, the visible object arises and falls away in split seconds. But it appears like so many things around. Each on has to be conditioned to arise and fall away. So when we think about the world of nothing, it is one word that can lead to detachment, because what we like cannot stay at all. It's gone all the time, unknowingly. So we live in the world of moha, saññā and nimitta. So I think the teachings are very deep and we have to study just one word at a time. For me, it is not like we heard the teachings and we could understand everything - that is impossible because it is so very deep. For example when you come to the Foundation and have no idea about anattaness of seeing, hearing, thinking, because from birth, until then there must be the idea of "I" all the time. So what can eradicate the anusaya, the latent tendencies even in dreams, or any moment of citta it is there as the source for the other akusala to arise. For example, while one is asleep, there is the idea of self as anusaya, latent tendency, and as soon as there is a moment of seeing - seeing is not that which is seen - and seeing arises at the eye-base - rūpa which can be the base for the arising of citta. So when we talk about dhatu, there are six: eye-base, ear-base, nose-base, tongue-base, body-base, and the mind, mano-dvāra. And by way of dvāra, there are also six, but different meaning. Dhatu is the place or origin for the citta to arise, but the dvāra is the doorway for not only seeing, but also other citta that arise before and after seeing, until the rūpa is gone, no more.

So I think that which is heard is true, because they are the words of the Buddha. So it depends on pariyatti, very skilful in understanding the conformity of different words, by way of dhatu, by way of ariya sacca, by way of āyatana, paṭiccasamuppāda. But it must be now. paṭiccasamuppāda is now too. I think that if we study the teachings, the words of scholars, professionals in Pali, or only the translation, that is not the right way. Buddha taught that what appears now can be known as it is. And he kept on asking the persons who came to see him: "Is seeing permanent?" At that moment, the person who has accumulated right understanding so much can understand seeing right then. At the moment of direct awareness, it is satipaṭṭhāna, different from those who came to just listen and think by their own, about this and that. That's the way I think. For me, the best way for me is to study respectfully one word at the time and it conforms with other words that we speak all the time, for forty-five years.

6:30

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But we see in the suttas, the discourses, that the Buddha teaches a graduated training. He doesn't begin immediately by asking people to contemplate what is occurring in their immediate experience, but first they have to lay a secure foundation of sila, moral discipline, of moral conduct.

Ajahn Sujin: But you see that even one word like sila - people think they understand that. Sila is the behaviour of speech and deeds, but actually in the Tipititaka itself, in the Patisambhidamagga, the table or rūpa cannot do anything. No sila for the rūpa at all. So the sila must be only the citta and cetasika. So we see behaviour of citta and cetasikas, by way of akusala sila when akusala citta arises, and it is kusala sila when kusala citta arises and abyakata sila for arahatta.

Seeing cannot do anything - it just arises to see. But when citta is conditioned by many cetasika, sometimes it is wholesome, sometimes it is not wholesome. That is why only unwholesome citta is akusala sila. So people just think about the five sila, or the eight sila, or the ten sila, but actually, sila is the behaviour of the citta and cetasikas only. So I think that the Buddha taught from his great understanding, and you just learn to try to understand his words. So that is why if you don't consider carefully, you might go wrong. Because if there is no understanding of this moment, what can be understood? Everything is gone. It is only thinking about (things.) If pariyatti is not firm enough, if it is not sacca-ñāṇa yet, there cannot be condition for patipatti at all. Because patipatti is direct awareness with understanding, very natural. Because the teachings taught about the path to eradicate atta. So it has to begin from understanding anattaness all the way. So it has to be very natural, like now, because now nobody thinks about seeing while there is seeing. It is so common. At the moment of hearing, they have no idea about what hearing arises at that moment. But thinking carefully about, if there is nothing arising at all, there is the world - impossible. As soon as a pain or reality arises, the world is there. Lokiya is worldly because it is conditioned to arise and fall away, different from lokuttara.

So, many things are now appearing, so there must be many, many conditions for everything to arise and fall away in split seconds. What is left is just the sign or nimitta of everything. The sign of rūpa, the sign of vedanā, the sign of saññā, the sign of saṅkhāra and the sign of viññāṇa. It is impossible to directly experience just one citta at a time because no matter what, it appears as nimitta. For example, the unpleasant feeling is conditioned to arise, and it grows, so it appears. So how can there be precisely experiencing just one at a time?

According to the vithi-cittas, so many cittas. How many cittas arise as bhāvānga before seeing? There is only one moment. There is panca-dvāra-āvajjana only, but the panca-dvāra-āvajjana cannot see. Only seeing itself can see. But the rūpa is still there, not fallen away yet. And the cittas after seeing - only three moments - after that āsava is there. So who knows about that āsava? Because it is not like nivārana or kilesa. It is all so very, very, very subtle. Right now, we are talking, thinking, considering dhamma, among akusala, after seeing, hearing all the time. That is quite a long, long, way to understand truly exactly what this moment is, just one at a time. When we think of the whole world, we think of many things, but without one entity, there cannot be anything right now. So what take for something must be together with many, many other things. Like the four primary rūpa, at the moment of hearing, who knows? Only some kalapa - of that kalapal there are nine rūpas - but conditioned by citta.

So I think that this life is not enough to understand the teachings. But when it is firmly cultivated, it can grow a little by little, and paññā knows. But when it is not paññā, it has to ask the other: "how much understanding I have", and that is not right. Only paññā knows, other than that no one knows. The best thing in life is right understanding of the teachings of the Buddha because what about the question, the answer is there, in the book, in the Tipitaka. So I think that people misunderstand the words like pariyatti. They think that only knowing about nama-rūpa can condition patipatti, but it is not like that, because pariyatti is the very skilful and certain confidence in reality. Without reality, it is useless to learn the Tipitaka. Each word of the Buddha represents reality right now, like hardness. No one thinks about it at all, but it is not self. It is just the element that can be touched. As soon as it has arisen, it falls away. It appears as if it is there all the time many, many moments. This is only one doorway. What about seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching? So the world is in darkness until the words of the Buddha opened it up. Only the citta and cetasika and rūpa. No one there. No thing at all.

So live with the understanding of the Buddha. Some people who do not understand the teachings look for the truth, but they don't know that the truth is now and here. And people just think to do something because for the word bhāvanā in Pali, they use the word meditation, but I think it is the cultivation of right understanding from moment to moment, by itself. The other cetasikas cannot perform the function of paññā. Only paññā which has arisen is there, accumulated until it can condition right understanding with right awareness of only a reality at a time. By then the word is lost. Not at all. Only a reality which is experienced and is experience. The first vipassana ñāṇa is nama-rūpa-pariccheda-ñāṇa, the distinction between nama and rūpa - no one there at all. That is not enough yet because the idea of self is deeply rooted. It takes quite a long, long time. One has to be truthful according to the ten paramis: sacca parami and dana parami, and viriya parami. But when we read the Tipitaka carelessly, people take the word viriya for "I will do very hard to get it". But it is impossible because it is the idea of self that goes on and on and on.

17:10

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But of course, at the outset people will practice rooted in the idea of the self attaining something. But it is when the practice advances then the idea of self will gradually become diminished. It is quite natural for people to think in the conventional terms, "I" and "my attainment".

Ajahn Sujin: Even that has to be known by paññā. Otherwise the five khandhas, the rūpa khandha, vedanā khandha, saññā khandha, saṅkhāra kahandha, viññāṇa khandha cannot be eradicated at all if it is not known. I think that we usually, in a day, do not see the lobha and moha because seeing is not known, hearing is not known, thinking is not known, everything is not known. It is pariyatti, but you have to be very careful, like with the word "practice." It is not the self, but the accumulated understanding that can condition the moment of reality. For example, no one can escape from hardness. It is there from the moment we wake up. But at the moment of touching, no understanding. But it is there, the world is there. The other world is not there. Only that wolrd should be known. Whatever is the object of citta should be known naturally. It is so very, very difficult to eliminate the idea of self because it is always there and it always comes in: try to concentrate, try to catch or try to know. But paññā knows. So paññā goes little by little to detach from clinging, with the idea of self. For example, right now, seeing is not known as that which experiences visible object. And this hinders the understanding of the next reality because it takes that thing as somethng instantly, until it is just seeing - just that which you see. It gradually begins to understand in daily life, by conditions, from pariyatti, to prove whether pariyatti is enough or not. If pariyatti is not enough yet, it cannot condition letting go, or anything in daily life at all. So it has to be daily life and daily understanding because paññā works this way.

So the word practice can be misunderstood because no one is practicing. The characteristic which appears, paññā knows as it is. Hearing now is not sound. And it is not understanding the meaning of it, it has be a different moment. Very natural, like you do not want to hear the sound - hearing hears. We don't want lobha to arise or dosa to arise, but it is there. I think every moment can be understood, but only by paññā.

21:02

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But there are specific methods of training to reduce the impact of lobha and dosa. The Buddha in the sutta teaches very much like a skilful physician, prescribing the right medicine to address the particular illnessess of the mind.

Ajahn Sujin: Yes, and skilful is paññā.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Yes, but not all the methods that the Buddha teaches in the suttas are directly aimed at the strengthening of paññā, in the sense of understanding ultimate realities. For example for reducing lobha in the form of kāma rāga (sensual desire), the Buddha teaches meditation on the impure nature of the body.

Ajahn Sujin: But without understanding it as not self, the self would try to have less (of lobha, kāma rāga, etc.)

Bhikkhu Bodhi: That kind of conceptual understanding of not-self would be in the background of someone who has learned the Dhamma properly. But let's say someone, a meditator who has a particular problem with sensual desire, then they would use, not the method of noting what's occurring exactly in the present, but they would use the method of contemplating the unattractive nature of the body.

Ajahn Sujin: But if there is no understanding of conditions, of reality as not-self, one thinks that one knows, one likes, one dislikes, one understands, always "I" who knows, even at the moment of trying to think in the right way, lobha is there. That is why before paññā can be developed, on and on and on until the lokuttura citta arises - not only one vipassana ñāṇa at all, mainly because one is not enough.

In Thailand, and all around the world, there are meditation centres, but in the Tipitaka, there is no meditation centre at all. And the people get something like the subject of meditation, which they select by themselves. That cannot be the moment of uderstanding anatta, because: "I heard about this, I selected this, I just want to know only this".

23:42

Bhikkhu Bodhi: The idea of meditation centres is a pretty recent idea beginning in the nineteenth century. Formerly, in ancient times, people who want to do intensive meditation usually would become monastics, or else lay people who want to do intensive meditation would go to the monastery and the monastery would have facilities for the lay people to stay, to do the meditation.

Ajahn Sujin: But can anyone do intensive meditation? Without paññā develops little by little, by hearing? There is not only suta-mayā paññā but there must be cinta-mayā paññā. For example, in the Mangala sutta, to listen to the teachings is mangala and also to discuss the teachings. It means how difficult and subtle it is. And when there is no paññā, it is impossible to understand what is that which is not self, which sees and hears naturally. I think the words of the Buddha can help people to understand what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise one has one's own idea that this is right and try do that.

25:17

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Of course one has to always check one's understanding against the suttas. And if one has the good fortune to meet competent teachers, to check one's understanding against against competent teachers to correct misunderstandings. That is why the Buddha places a value on having a kalyana mitta, having a good spiritual friend.

Ajahn Sujin: The best kalyana mitta is the Budda. So his words are the best. I think that if one thinks carefully, one can understand the way, the path leading to letting go. Otherwise one has with oneself the idea of the self all the time. And that is wrong because that person turns away from the teachings, in this life and on and on in other lives as well. So reading is not enough, studying is not enough, considering is not enough, until right awareness arises. By then one knows that from hearing, from thinking, from considering, from understanding, better and better. Because it has to begin from the now.

26:52

Bhikkhu Bodhi: If one looks at the structure of, say, the satipaṭṭhāna system taught by the Buddha, the Buddha begins very very skilfully the system of satipaṭṭhāna with kaya-anupassana with the contemplation of the body, with methods of meditaiton that take a relatively gross object of the body as a way to initially stabilize the mind. And one has the contemplation of the dhammas, particularly the eye and forms, the ear and sounds, comes only in the fourth satipaṭṭhāna, the fourth foundation of mindfulness. So we can see that there is a gradual progression through the foundations of mindfulness. So when we start the practice of satipaṭṭhāna by noting hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and their respective objects, one first has to be able to - this is my own experience - to stabilize the mind with some form of meditation, some form of practice, that is based on the body.

Ajahn Sujin: And that is the idea of self.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I don't think so. Not necessarily.

Ajahn Sujin: I think that if we keep on going on the right track, the right way of anatta, there is no idea of "I" there, or to select or try to have such-and-such as an object. It has to be conditioned subtley, unknowingly, like Sariputta met Assaji. He didn't realize that he would be there to listen to such-and-such words, and to become enlightened. Unknowingly, but by conditions enough. Or Angulimala - who would have known that he would be an arahatta. It has to be so very naturally or unexpectedly by way of anattaness. I think that people take the word sammā sati or satipaṭṭhāna, and just want to do, but not to understand what is sammā sati and how it can be satipaṭṭhāna. There are so many things around: the eyes, ears, nose tongue, body and mind. Who can select that citta and sati to arise and be aware? Sati is conditioned - as soon as it arises, it experiences awareness of that object, instantly, by itself. It is not told to be aware of this or to be aware of that at all.

And lobha is so very crafty. It can be to any aspect of understanding. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa can be eradicated only by sotapatti magga citta. Before that, paññā knows and paññā can let it go all the way. Otherwise it is there. When people hear the teachings, lobha is there, just want to be enlightened, not thinking that it is quite a long way to understand. Seeing right now, naturally, hearing right now.

30:42

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Of course attainment is not a matter of personal ambition, but my point is that one has to make a determination to practice the teachings and one has to go through the progressive stages of the teachings until the conditions are established to contemplate in a selfless manner, the occurrence of phenomena at successive moments.

Ajahn Sujin: Its difficult to see lobha is there. The idea of "I would like to intensely follow the teachings", and understanding what appears right now, are different.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Say, I am living in the United States. I hear about Buddhism. I decide I want to become a Buddhist monk. So then I decide to go to Asia. If I were to stay to think that the essence of Buddhism is just understanding what is occurring right now, I never would have left the United States to Asia to become a monk. I would have stayed at my house in the United States observing what is arising, and seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.

Ajahn Sujin: Yes, but I feel that to be a monk is not for everyone. Even Anathapindaka and Visakha could attain enlightenment by their own accumulations, by conditions. So I think that people should learn to understand the teachings well, and understand one's own inclinations, whether one can follow the teachings and the Vinaya.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: That requires, perhaps, some kind of past connections from past life?

Ajahn Sujin: The best thing is to understand reality correctly.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Of course, that is the higher level of practice.

Ajahn Sujin: So each word should be studied very carefully. Even right now, no direct awareness of reality because of lack of understanding as pariyatti. Pariyatti will lead to patipatti, but people today will not study. They just want to practice instantly. By the self and ignorance. If you ask them about seeing right now - no idea. And right understanding accompanies right awareness, becuase the eightfold path leads by right understanding. Even right now, there are many objects to be understood. Unless one has pariyatti very firmly, no awareness. But when awareness arises, paññā is there, and knows, even if it is very short. It is so very natural. It depends on whether there is enough to let it go or not. If there is not enough yet, learn more, but by anatta, not self at all. To understand whatever appears by sati - not by "I". It is not that "I" practice, but it is conditioned by pariyatti, and understanding is the leader. This is letting go, but when one tries so hard, it is not letting go. That is why when he became enlightened, he refused to teach at once. So very subtle.

35:14

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Yes, that is an interesting passage. The Buddha after becoming fully enlightened, his initial impulse was not to teach, but to ...

Ajahn Sujin: Even he was enlightened, the Buddha, he was thinking about teaching directly after his enlightenment. Seeing no one makes the hearing and the sound to appear, and they are gone, never to return - each life, each moment, each paramattha dhamma do not return at all. And this can lead to letting go. Life, from life to life, just like that. To be born, to have everything, and then no more ... none at all. And where were they? They are only paramattha dhamma, reality arising and falling away. No one can stop their way. In Tipitaka, there is one phrase: "just live for paññā to arise." That is the point. Not to become enlightened because of not knowing this or that thing. So very naturally one knows when there is satipaṭṭhāna or not, by conditions, and it is gone. To learn that it cannot stay, it arises and falls away, it is dukkha, can lead to detachment from clinging to samsara anymore.

You haven't been to Bangkok?

37:37

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I was only in Thailand for one week in 1972, when I first went to Asia.

Ajahn Sujin: Only once?

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Only once, yes. Then I went on to Sri Lanka and I spent 22-23 years.

Ajahn Sujin: I went to Sri Lanka in April this year.

Each moment is gone, with ignorance or with paññā, thats all. Or with may degrees of unwholesomeness or kilesa. If the Buddha didn't teach, we wouldn't know the now is about paṭiccasamuppāda, phassa, vedanā, khandha, upadana . So very rapidly ... no one can stop.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Yes, it is interesting when he hesitated to teach, the two things he mentioned as difficult to impart to others are dependent origination and nibbana.

Ajahn Sujin: And people think is nibbana is quite near. Just go somewhere and do something and they got nibbana.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I don't know anybody who has that idea.

Ajahn Sujin: Right understanding doesn't need any place. It needs development, to be accumulated. Careful study, careful considering. Each moment can be anatta through paññā. But through ignorance, someone, something, some story all the time. If there is no awareness, sound does not appear as sound. If it is not the right understanding of the moment right now, it is impossible to let go anything.

40:42

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Or even the mind that identifies the sound is not the same as the mind that actually hears the sound.

Ajahn Sujin: Why do we have to say like that "the sound is the sound". No need. But the characteristic itself, which is not self, should be attended to as a reality, arising and falling away. Like the visual object object ... alternately all the time ... six doorways.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: And if one is very mindful while listening to what you call the sound, it actually breaks up into a series or sequence of individual sounds.

Ajahn Sujin: But there are two ways, one is wrong and one is right. The wrong one is trying to have it and being happy to have it. The other way is that it is conditioned - no one can make it arise, and it is gone. Lobha is already there ...crafty ... the cheating reality. It doesn't appear as it is. But when paññā knows as the sound is gone, everything gone. No one can make it arise and no one can stop it from falling away. And never to return at all, each moment. When paññā knows it, paññā learns, or is developed by being aware, use awareness to understand better and better. But it has to be by itself, by realities, the eightfold path or bodhipakhiya dhama. So natural because it is conditioned to smile, to hate or whatever, by conditions. And paññā must be so very strong enough to let it go. And life is not as difficult as it used to be, when there is paññā. Everything is gone. And it is gone and it is gone, when awareness is there. Otherwise it cannot let it go with the idea of self in daily life at all, or make it believe that it has paññā enough to let it go. But that is wrong because paññā has to understand whatever appears. Completely, absolutely. And I think that the person who can read the Tipitaka must be the person who understands the words of the Buddha. Otherwise they interpret their own way.

44:48

Bhikkhu Bodhi: There are many people who can read the Tipitaka but develop different interpretations. There can easily be misunderstanding.

Ajahn Sujin: Like sati. In Thailand, we use many words from Pali, but wrongly. To say "be careful", they would say "sati". Just to cross the road!

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But I would say that is also an application of sati - to cross the road.

Ajahn Sujin: But it is not because it has to be a wholesome cetasika. By way of dana, sila and bhāvanā. It becomes a Thai word now.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But that is a kind of a very mundane, wholesome kind of sati to be mindful or careful when crossing the road.

Ajahn Sujin: But the nature of it cannot be sati at all. It can be concentration.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I don't know that it is concentration because it has an element of care in it, whereas concentration is just focused one-pointedly on a subject. I would say it is sati-sampajañña, not at the high level ...

Ajahn Sujin: According to Abhidhamma, sati has to arise by way of dana, sila or bhāvanā or wholesome moments only.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I think sati can be a more general psychological condition which is being used in the context of the Dhamma in a specific sense. That doesn't mean there can't be sati outside the context of the Buddha's Dhamma.

Ajahn Sujin: So it is not the Buddha's words if it is translated like that. Any person can use any word because they have a right to say so. But this is the beginning of having wrong understanding of the teaching. From not careful study, the adults told the children to be "sati".

Bhikkhu Bodhi: It could be the beginning of the training in sati that will go on to higher levels.

Ajahn Sujin: But to me, I think that it is the wrong beginning.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I am not so sure about that. One is careful in crossing the road. One is learning to be aware of potential dangers.

Ajahn Sujin: That is the word awareness in English according to the dictionary, but not according to reality.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: The English word awareness has many many shades and meanings. But lets just stick to sati. In crossing the road ...

Ajahn Sujin: Otherwise one has sati all day if one does anything carefully. But that's not right, it has to be wholesome - sobhana cetasika.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But don't also forget that the suttas speak about micca sati, wrong mindfulness.

Ajahn Sujin: There is micca practice.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But crossing the road has nothing that is micca sati. I am saying that the word sati can have many many applications.

Ajahn Sujin: But when it is akusala, when it is not dosa-mula citta or moha-mula citta, it is lobha-mula citta. They are very close - like metta, it is approxiate to lobha.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: The word used in the Visuddhimagga, pema or sneha - I don't remember exactly - is like personal affection. Those are sort of synonyms of lobha.

Ajahn Sujin: There are many words for lobha depending on degrees. So when you can use the Pali word in daily life, but when you read, you have to be careful. Otherwise they mix and think they have kusala all day. When we talk about concentration while one is crossing the street - concentration or ekagatta cetasika arises with each citta - and at that moment lobha would like not be crushed by the car.

And I think that for the four maha satipaṭṭhāna, it doesn't matter at all whether kaya-anupassana is the first. Because who can make sati follow the path or the way: this first and this second. No, not at all. Each moment, shows anattaness all the time. And no one can possibly tell sati to do this or that because it is conditioned to arise and be aware.

51:02

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But sometimes the conditions that cause things to arise will be the cetañāṇas, intention that is arisen in the present citta. So that is what is responsible when say someone is taking up the practice of satipaṭṭhāna.

Ajahn Sujin: But the intention is not the path of the eightfold path.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But the cetana is the mental factor ...

Ajahn Sujin: ... arises with each moment

Bhikkhu Bodhi: There are different cetanas, so there will be a cetana which, in the case of someone taking up satipaṭṭhāna practice ...

Ajahn Sujin: Cetana is there, but cetana is not the path.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I am not saying that cetana is the path, but cetana is the factor that will give rise, together with viriya, to sati.

Ajahn Sujin: Many cetasikas together.

52:00

Bhikkhu Bodhi: One question that sometimes comes up is that why is there no cetasika in the Abhidhamma scheme for fear.

Ajahn Sujin: It accompanies domanasa vedanā. So it has to be dosa-mula citta.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Yes, but fear is not mentioned ...

Ajahn Sujin: ... because when we use the word dosa, it includes all unpleasant moments.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But it seems to be that there is such a big difference between hatred and fear. One word doesn't adequately cover both. If you look in the Dhammasangini or any of the words used to explain dosa are words like vyāpada, paṭigha, ill-will, aversion and so forth, but no words that correspond to fear.

Ajahn Sujin: Fear is real. So it has to be citta and cetasika. And it is unpleasant. There are only 12 akusala citta. It is not lobha, it is not moha, so it has to be dosa.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: One could infer that it would be in dosa, in patigha sampayutta cittas.

Ajahn Sujin: When one rejects the object. That is why in each citta, the Buddha taught about the vedanā all the time - what vedanā is there with lobha, how many feelings can be. So only be aware of one khandha is not enough. And one forgets. One thinks that that's the way ... anything - just one thing is enough. But it is not enough at all.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Of course, one has to understand all five of the aggregates.

Ajahn Sujin: And all what happens in a day. And it is not self. But I think that no matter life is so pleasant or whatever, it is just for a moment. And then nothing. This will lead to letting go. Life, not to be born again. But no one can do it - it depends on conditions only. And anapanasati is not easy at all. But people think it is very easy.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I don't know anybody who has tried to practice anapanasati seriously who thinks it is easy. When you read about it it sounds very easy, but when you sit to practice, it is difficult.

Ajahn Sujin: And it has to be anatta too. Don't tell sati to be aware of this or that. But it is told all the time, "be aware of this, be aware of that." That is why I think that discussion of Dhamma is mangala. Bringing more right understanding, letting go, rather than clinging to wrong understanding anymore.

I think people cannot tell the difference between sammā samādhi and micca samādhi. They think that any samādhi is sammā samādhi. So without right understanding, it cannot be sammā samādhi at all. And they don't know what paññā knows. So they take miccha samādhi for sammā samādhi. The development of paññā in daily life is very, very difficult, because it cannot select the object - by conditions only.

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by DNS » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:56 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:33 am
Last week Sujin Boriharnwanaket was in India with a large group of Thai Buddhists.
By chance they ran into Bhikkhu Bodhi at the Maha Bodhi Vihara.
Auspicious! Just by chance they happened to be at Maha Bodhi Temple at the same time and not planned, that is amazing and great. Small world . . .

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:12 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:56 pm
robertk wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:33 am
Last week Sujin Boriharnwanaket was in India with a large group of Thai Buddhists.
By chance they ran into Bhikkhu Bodhi at the Maha Bodhi Vihara.
Auspicious! Just by chance they happened to be at Maha Bodhi Temple at the same time and not planned, that is amazing and great. Small world . . .
Yes, I see from the dsg thread that the last time they met was in Colombo in 1977, when Sujin and ven. Dhammadharo ( now deceased) were having discussions with monks and laypeople . 42 years ago!

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by samsarictravelling » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:38 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:22 pm
Here is the transcript of the discusssion with Bodhi and Sujin.
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/156053

discussions between Ajahn Sujin and Bhikkhu Bodhi, 18th Jan 2019.
https://www.dhammastudygroup.org/#2019-01b



0:00

Ajahn Sujin: Is there something to talk about? Abhidhamma or realities ...

Bhikkhu Bodhi: You just continue with what you where saying before.

Ajahn Sujin: At the Foundation, when people come to listen to the teachings, that's on realities right now. Because what is real must be this moment. The past one has gone and the future one hasn't come yet. That's why if there is no understanding, the truth of whatever appears is not realized. That which has to arise appears by conditions. As soon as it has arisen, it falls away in split seconds. So actually, from nothing, there is something, and there is nothing, in samsara, never to return at all. So the moment that can be understood must be this very moment. Realities are very very different. Like seeing performs the functions of seeing. It cannot do anything at all. No one can make it change this function. And seeing is different from hearing. They cannot arise together at all, but arise by different conditions. Seeing arises and falls away so many cittas in between. Hearing arises and falls away. It seems like they arise together, but actually it is impossible. So the world in which we live, in samsara, we live in the world of saññā, memory, just think about that which is seen, but not as it is. The rūpa, the visible object arises and falls away in split seconds. But it appears like so many things around. Each on has to be conditioned to arise and fall away. So when we think about the world of nothing, it is one word that can lead to detachment, because what we like cannot stay at all. It's gone all the time, unknowingly. So we live in the world of moha, saññā and nimitta. So I think the teachings are very deep and we have to study just one word at a time. For me, it is not like we heard the teachings and we could understand everything - that is impossible because it is so very deep. For example when you come to the Foundation and have no idea about anattaness of seeing, hearing, thinking, because from birth, until then there must be the idea of "I" all the time. So what can eradicate the anusaya, the latent tendencies even in dreams, or any moment of citta it is there as the source for the other akusala to arise. For example, while one is asleep, there is the idea of self as anusaya, latent tendency, and as soon as there is a moment of seeing - seeing is not that which is seen - and seeing arises at the eye-base - rūpa which can be the base for the arising of citta. So when we talk about dhatu, there are six: eye-base, ear-base, nose-base, tongue-base, body-base, and the mind, mano-dvāra. And by way of dvāra, there are also six, but different meaning. Dhatu is the place or origin for the citta to arise, but the dvāra is the doorway for not only seeing, but also other citta that arise before and after seeing, until the rūpa is gone, no more.

So I think that which is heard is true, because they are the words of the Buddha. So it depends on pariyatti, very skilful in understanding the conformity of different words, by way of dhatu, by way of ariya sacca, by way of āyatana, paṭiccasamuppāda. But it must be now. paṭiccasamuppāda is now too. I think that if we study the teachings, the words of scholars, professionals in Pali, or only the translation, that is not the right way. Buddha taught that what appears now can be known as it is. And he kept on asking the persons who came to see him: "Is seeing permanent?" At that moment, the person who has accumulated right understanding so much can understand seeing right then. At the moment of direct awareness, it is satipaṭṭhāna, different from those who came to just listen and think by their own, about this and that. That's the way I think. For me, the best way for me is to study respectfully one word at the time and it conforms with other words that we speak all the time, for forty-five years.

6:30

Bhikkhu Bodhi: But we see in the suttas, the discourses, that the Buddha teaches a graduated training. He doesn't begin immediately by asking people to contemplate what is occurring in their immediate experience, but first they have to lay a secure foundation of sila, moral discipline, of moral conduct.

...

Ajahn Sujin: And all what happens in a day. And it is not self. But I think that no matter life is so pleasant or whatever, it is just for a moment. And then nothing. This will lead to letting go. Life, not to be born again. But no one can do it - it depends on conditions only. And anapanasati is not easy at all. But people think it is very easy.

Bhikkhu Bodhi: I don't know anybody who has tried to practice anapanasati seriously who thinks it is easy. When you read about it it sounds very easy, but when you sit to practice, it is difficult.

Ajahn Sujin: And it has to be anatta too. Don't tell sati to be aware of this or that. But it is told all the time, "be aware of this, be aware of that." That is why I think that discussion of Dhamma is mangala. Bringing more right understanding, letting go, rather than clinging to wrong understanding anymore.

I think people cannot tell the difference between sammā samādhi and micca samādhi. They think that any samādhi is sammā samādhi. So without right understanding, it cannot be sammā samādhi at all. And they don't know what paññā knows. So they take miccha samādhi for sammā samādhi. The development of paññā in daily life is very, very difficult, because it cannot select the object - by conditions only.
I listened to the audio, as well. It's interesting to see how a person viewing life from the Abhidhamma teachings views life. I am not a follower, but found it very interesting.

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by Virgo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:45 pm

Not many comments about the discussion with Bhikkhu Bodhi... ?

Kevin...

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by Idappaccayata » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:57 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:45 pm
Not many comments about the discussion with Bhikkhu Bodhi... ?

Kevin...
I listened. I thought it was interesting. I got the feeling that sujin thinks his view is the right view and bhikkhu bodhi doesn't get it. I could be wrong though, I don't know the circumstances. Maybe they were speaking in front of the crowd and he was laying it all out for the sake of teaching them.

Either way, it was a very interesting conversation. I found it beneficial.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by Virgo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:01 pm

Idappaccayata wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:57 pm

I listened. I thought it was interesting. I got the feeling that sujin thinks his view is the right view and bhikkhu bodhi doesn't get it. I could be wrong though, I don't know the circumstances. Maybe they were speaking in front of the crowd and he was laying it all out for the sake of teaching them.

Either way, it was a very interesting conversation. I found it beneficial.
I am happy you gained something from the talk. Ajahn Sujin is female by the way.

Kevin...

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by Idappaccayata » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:39 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:01 pm
Idappaccayata wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:57 pm

I listened. I thought it was interesting. I got the feeling that sujin thinks his view is the right view and bhikkhu bodhi doesn't get it. I could be wrong though, I don't know the circumstances. Maybe they were speaking in front of the crowd and he was laying it all out for the sake of teaching them.

Either way, it was a very interesting conversation. I found it beneficial.
I am happy you gained something from the talk. Ajahn Sujin is female by the way.

Kevin...
Oh my mistake. Thank you for the clarification. This talk was the first I've been exposed to her. I definitely plan to seek out more of her talks though.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by Virgo » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:38 am

Idappaccayata wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:39 pm

Oh my mistake. Thank you for the clarification. This talk was the first I've been exposed to her. I definitely plan to seek out more of her talks though.
Great! There are many audio files here:

https://dhammastudygroup.org/

Kevin...

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by ksitiputra » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:45 am



at 46:00, there's a conversation on where AJ Sujin started to question on the misinterpretation of Tipitaka or Pali terms, and the two had explored the right or wrong definition or usage of the word SATI.

It is interesting to see how AJ Sujin tried her best to pursuade Bhikkhu Bodhi to believe her "right understand must come first" or "any meditation practice out there has been done with lobha/desire" position, and the Venerable was not moved at all.

For those who are not familiar with AJ Sujin, here's an old post to read to know how she and her group consider the Buddha's teachings:

Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5167

It's great to see both dhamma teachers are in good health, esp. AJ Sujin is already 92+.

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by nibbedhika » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:40 pm

Here is a carefully edited transcript of the whole conversation: https://docdro.id/Jsb83ur (pdf, 11 pages.)

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