Pledge of Allegiance...small children

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zavk
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by zavk »

This is probably old news to some of you but I just learned about it yesterday:
Will Phillips, 10-Year-Old, Won't Pledge Allegiance To A Country That Discriminates Against Gays

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/1 ... 55709.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I doubt the boy came to this understanding on his own. He was probably influenced by the attitudes of his parents. So if your son is growing up in an environment in which the questioning of such things as 'God' is encouraged (and it certainly looks like it is :)), he should develop a critical perspective on such things over time.

All the best.
With metta,
zavk
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Guy
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Guy »

It is my opinion that school is primarily designed to gradually indoctrinate children, whose minds absorb whatever information goes in without question, into a certain way of thinking and behaving.

...But that might just be my opinion.
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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bodom
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by bodom »

I recited the pledge for twelve years through school, never gave the word god a second thought and now i am a buddhist. Dont make it an issue unless your kids do.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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fig tree
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by fig tree »

I agree with this (40 pages worth of argument):

http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/supreme_c ... dtemps.pdf

I think the fact that this isn't the consensus legal opinion is just bias.

I suppose quietly leaving out "under God" is perhaps the easiest solution. I have big misgivings, however, about cooperating even just passively in anybody's efforts to maintain the impression in many people's minds that America is a theist country, aside from a small sprinkling of disloyal people who don't deserve to be considered American:

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/no-i_do ... 07975.html

Fig Tree
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theravada_guy
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by theravada_guy »

Greetings,

Every time they'd say 'for which it stands' I always pictured a witch, like 'for witch it stands'. I dunno. It was just my translation of it as a younger kid. I never knew what it meant either, as I'm sure a lot of kids don't. In high school, I was into anarchsim and punk rock, so I refused to stand up for it. There were other kids who didn't stand either. At my high school, there was an argument on the issue, and it was settled that those who wanted to stand up and say it, could, and those that didn't want too, didn't have too. So, it was pretty easy going there I guess. I still don't think it's something anyone should have to be required to stand up and recite, especially if it goes against something in their beliefs, whether they be political, religious or on whatever grounds. You can still be patriotic without standing up and reciting the pledge, especially if you don't believe in 'God', or your theological views are different than what it is implied by that sentence in the pledge. Now, the whole issue of making someone do it is whacko in my my opinion. I also don't think children who don't know what the heck it means should have to say it. :cookoo: To this day, I've forgotten the words. I love America. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But I also don't think we're superior to anyone else. (Obviously my views have changed since high school ;) ) Well, these are just my random thoughts on the issue.
With mettā,

TG
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Ben
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Ben »

Hi all

We've just had Australia Day (Jan 26). Over the last twenty years Australia Day has also been marked by our indigenous population as "Invasion Day" with associated protests around the country. the 26th January marks the anniversary that Arthur Philip landed in Sydney Cove with over 1000 convicts and the birth of a penal colony and the subsequent brutal subjugation of our native population.
Nationalism, or national identiy in this country is schizophrenic in nature yet viewed by most people through the lens of either apathy or a catalyst for (usually) race-related violence or diatribe. Australia Day doesn't mean much to many people except as an opportunity to take the day off. Because this year it fell on a Tuesday, it was the reason why an estimated 500,000 people called in to work 'sick' on Monday morning to have a four-day weekend. The one day of the year that is of real significance to national identity is ANZAC Day, 25th April which commemorates the military disaster of the Galipolli camaign in 1915.
A mistake a lot of Australians make is to point their finger at the perceived excesses of American nationalism as objects of myrth, yet fail to see the dark underbelly of our own nationalism.
Anyway, I'm done derailing this thread and I'm sure you've heard enough of my rant.
Time to get back on topic, I think!
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Guy
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Guy »

Nice Australia Day rant, Ben. :popcorn:
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Kim OHara
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Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Kim OHara »

Guy wrote:It is my opinion that school is primarily designed to gradually indoctrinate children, whose minds absorb whatever information goes in without question, into a certain way of thinking and behaving.

...But that might just be my opinion.
Not just your opinion, but you are emphasising the negative aspects of it: 'schools socialise children' is equally true but leaves out the negative implications.
:juggling:

And the Oath is part of the indoctrination/socialisation. So are the Christmas and Easter activities, and the cheer squads for the sporting teams, and wearing the school uniform (if there is one - they are common but not universal here in Oz), and how to flick paper pellets off the end of your ruler ... the whole lot, good and bad.
I've been there, done that - as a child, as a teacher and as a parent, in several school systems.
Kids need to know all this stuff to survive when they leave school, even if they then choose not to go along with all of it.
None of it is likely to do permanent damage, especially if the home values are good.
:smile:

Kim
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Butrfly_Nirvana
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Butrfly_Nirvana »

Wow! Great insights!

What about the question of: Should a child in grade school really be making such a pledge? As mentioned, they don't know what an allegiance is, let alone all of those other words! So wouldn't that be teaching the kids to "just go along" with whatever someone else tells them to do without question or evidence as to why? Just my random thought I suppose! I think I will just let the kids "go along with it" and as they get older if they ask about it, or if the meaning is brought up, we'll take that one conversation at a time!
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