Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammakid
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello Sangha,
It seems Bhante and a few others are basically saying the same thing: feminine dhammas are the result of unwholesome kamma ripening during an age where men have gained dominance and control over society. It's the harsh truth from a Buddhist point of view, just as a "good" person being tortured to death by a serial killer is also the harsh truth. Kamma is a universal law. Compassion evolves out of noticing how kamma affects us based on our actions, and teaching all beings to change their ways in order to cultivate wholesome kamma and eventually attain liberation.

I personally believe I have many feminine dhammas, although obviously they have not manifested as female biology. But I ruminate quite often, I show great compassion and I tend far more to female company than male. Then again, I'm not the only male in the world like this. Gender is a spectrum, and is not the equal to biological sex.

Analogy: I'm an African American male. Statistics show I will likely end up dead or in prison. Furthermore, my people are bound by so much racism and classism still prevalent in today's world. Yet, I am heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. It has nothing to do inherently with me being Black, but rather I have cultivated unwholesome conditions for myself, and those with higher status and power have cultivated some wholesome kamma for themselves to be in power (although I guess it can be argued that being a racists/classists is either the result of unwholesome kamma or is actively creating unwholesome kamma).

I also have depression, and no health insurance to pay for medication or check-ups. I had to drop out of school due to lack of funds. And, worst of all, I was born in the States! (Haha). And yet, I have to listen to all you elitist Buddhist hippies tell me it's my fault? Well, yes, kind of, because I am heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, abide supported by my kamma.

That doesn't negate women's struggle for equality and fair treatment in society (I am a feminist, after all). But it also means we should be wise and listen to the compassionate teaching when it's available to us, so we can cultivate the conditions for a favorable rebirth.

I, for one, hope to cultivate the conditions to be born as a woman during an aeon when women dominate society. Why not? The point is to eliminate suffering, and right practice now makes it possible later.

Consider the fact that the Buddha was the victim of an apparent murder attempt by his own family member and was forced to endure a quite excruciating stab to the foot by a sliver of hard rock. Did he complain? No. He guarded his sense-doors and gained the devas' applause. True compassion for all beings sees through the delusion of others, even when it's male chauvinists and misogynists ruining society as we know it. Because true compassion is selfless, and understands we are all deluded in some way. And when the powerful are deluded, they show it in more outwardly devastating ways than the delusion of the subordinate. All it means is the Dhamma is that much more important to society.

I love the explanation that the Enlightenment of a male Sammasambuddha is no different than the Enlightenment of a female Arahant. That pretty much answers the question.

I'm either right, wrong, or neither - but I guess I'll find out! (Thanks, Manapa!)

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

It seems Bhante and a few others are basically saying the same thing: feminine dhammas are the result of unwholesome kamma ripening during an age where men have gained dominance and control over society. It's the harsh truth from a Buddhist point of view...
Yes, nicely stated! It may seem harsh to some. But there's a whole lot of other births that are more seriously unfortunate!

I find no offense in what Bhante has to say. According to my belief system, we all have all been all kinds of beings. For those of us in the form of female or male humans, it's very temporary. Like a flash in the pan.

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Dhammakid wrote:It seems Bhante and a few others are basically saying the same thing: feminine dhammas are the result of unwholesome kamma ripening during an age where men have gained dominance and control over society.
Not quite. Theravada doctrine is that "female" characteristics are produced from inferior kamma, period. Theravada does not accept the possibility that a woman can become a Buddha in any age for this reason.
Last edited by Jason on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Drolma wrote:I find no offense in what Bhante has to say. According to my belief system, we all have all been all kinds of beings.
I do not take offense to what the Ven. Dhammanando is saying either, even though I do not agree with such ideas.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by cooran »

Hello Elohim,

Which particular things do you disagree with, and why? Not arguing, just interested.

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by jcsuperstar »

this is a topic that really goes nowhere, and doesnt make anyone happy. really doesnt seem to serve any purpose either...

but i keep thinking about it now, and i cant think of any examples of women going off to do anything similar to the Buddha. well going off to join spiritual comunities, yes, but just going off into the wilderness alone, no. its only desert sages, recluses, hermits and crazy old men.

and other than those rare few guys who go off alone it's not even a matter of men vs women...
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Chris,
Chris wrote:Which particular things do you disagree with, and why? Not arguing, just interested.
I thought it was obvious, but I disagree that a woman is incapable of being a Buddha.

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

Elohim wrote:
Dhammakid wrote:It seems Bhante and a few others are basically saying the same thing: feminine dhammas are the result of unwholesome kamma ripening during an age where men have gained dominance and control over society.
Not quite. Theravada doctrine is that "female" characteristics are produced from inferior kamma, period. Theravada does not accept the possibility that a woman can become a Buddha in any age for this reason.
Hello Elohim,
Can you explain how you derive this from Bhante's explanations and/or the suttas?

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

Elohim wrote: ...I disagree that a woman is incapable of being a Buddha.
As do I. And if the statement "Theravada rejects the idea that females can become Buddhas because feminine dhammas are a result of inferior kammas in any age" is true, then I cannot agree with that either. Althought I guess I have to say I have no direct knowledge to dispute it.

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Dhammakid wrote:Can you explain how you derive this from Bhante's explanations and/or the suttas?
I did not derived it from anything, Dhammakid, that is what I have been explicitly told in the past. To put it simply, Theravada doctrine is pretty adamant that when it is stated it is impossible for a woman to become a Buddha (such as in MN 115), that means it is impossible.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Element »

Individual wrote:Can you cite suttas where the Buddha said that compassion was a "male" quality and neediness was a "female" quality?
Buddha said in the DN: A man serves his wife in five ways. Thus being served, a woman returns her love in five ways. Man is to support and serve. A woman's love should be conditional. Thus, a man has unconditional love and a woman conditional love. This is the optimal way of nature or dhamma. If one holds a woman serves and gives unconditionality, the world will be lost. A woman loves a man when he does right. :jedi:
Last edited by Element on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Element »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

My take is that we need to renounce both masculinity and feminity.

The Buddha merely defines and differentiates them to provide clarity for us on what needs to be renounced.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Renouncing is spiritual but not worldly or moral.

Suttas are full of the Buddha differentiating male and female.

Better to understand one's true nature or purpose than to renounce.

Male and female are 'neutral'. There is nothing inherently in them to cause dukkha. Performing male or female role or duty is not dukkha.

Thus, there is not need to renounce or abandon.

Buddha did not teach non-duality is Nibbana.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Elohim wrote:Chris,
Chris wrote:Which particular things do you disagree with, and why? Not arguing, just interested.
I thought it was obvious, but I disagree that a woman is incapable of being a Buddha.

Jason
Hi Jason,

I thought it's that women cannot become a teaching-buddha. Like a nirmakaya. I don't know what we call it in Theravadan. But this thread has left me with the impression that females are capable of becoming enlightened just as males are.

Best,
Drolma
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by cooran »

Hello Elohim, all,

Can you tell me , when you say this, what your meaning of the term 'buddha' is? Do you mean Arahant - as is the usage in Mahayana (still with afflictions) .... Or do you mean Sammasambuddha - the only one called a Buddha in Theravada - completely fully enlightened when the Teachings have died out? And, if you mean Sammasambuddha, are you not stating that the Buddha Gotama was wrong, or that someone deliberately altered the Suttas and the Arahants at the Councils, and later, didn't happen to notice?

metta
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Individual »

Element wrote:
Individual wrote:Can you cite suttas where the Buddha said that compassion was a "male" quality and neediness was a "female" quality?
Buddha said in the DN: A man serves his wife in five ways. Thus being served, a woman returns her love in five ways. Man is to support and serve. A woman's love should be conditional. Thus, a man has unconditional love and a woman conditional love. This is the optimal way of nature or dhamma. If one holds a woman serves and gives unconditionality, the world will be lost. A woman loves a man when he does right. :jedi:
That doesn't seem to be relevant to my question, so I guess the answer is no. All love is conditional, except the love of Arahants and Buddhas.
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