Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:22 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:00 am
Anywho, Sujato is entitled to his own opinions. He's just a Sekkha who still gets lots of work to be done, just like you, me, and everyone else. Remember we're Theravadins, we pledge our allegiance to the Buddha's Dhamma, not some modern day guru.
I think any person that has lots of work to do is not in a position to make the above assessment.

santa100
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:22 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:00 am
Anywho, Sujato is entitled to his own opinions. He's just a Sekkha who still gets lots of work to be done, just like you, me, and everyone else. Remember we're Theravadins, we pledge our allegiance to the Buddha's Dhamma, not some modern day guru.
I think any person that has lots of work to do is not in a position to make the above assessment.
Not me. If I still have lots of work to do just like you or even some teacher, I'd very much appreciate folks to say the naked truth out loud instead of hiding it.

rightviewftw
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:37 pm

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:00 am
Anywho, Sujato is entitled to his own opinions. He's just a Sekkha who still gets lots of work to be done, just like you, me, and everyone else. Remember we're Theravadins, we pledge our allegiance to the Buddha's Dhamma, not some modern day guru.
what makes you think that Ven. Sujato is a sekkha?
Numbered Discourses 3.85. A Trainee

Then a mendicant went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Sir, they speak of this person called ‘a trainee’. How is a trainee defined?” “They train, mendicant, that’s why they’re called ‘a trainee’. What is their training? They train in the higher ethics, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom. They train, that’s why they’re called ‘a trainee’”.

“As a trainee trains,
following the straight road,
first they know about ending;
enlightenment follows in the same lifetime.

After that, to that poised one, freed by enlightenment
with the end of the fetters of rebirth,
the knowledge comes:
‘My freedom is unshakable.’”
DN33
Three individuals:
Tayo puggalā—
a trainee, an adept, and one who is neither a trainee nor an adept.
sekkho puggalo, asekkho puggalo, nevasekkho nāsekkho puggalo. (36)
It looks like Sekkha refers to people in higher training and a putujjhana is nevasekkho nāsekkho puggalo [neither adept nor a learner/trainee].
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

santa100
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:18 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:37 pm
what makes you think that Ven. Sujato is a sekkha?
You're right. I actually gave tons of leniency saying that. He could be a lot lower than that.

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:22 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:18 pm
You're right. I actually gave tons of leniency saying that. He could be a lot lower than that.
Well, I have met and spoken to him a few times. While I certainly do not accord with much of the mission he has chosen nor agree with many of his views, I found him very pleasant, with good skills, with good metta and very open minded. When pressed on the issue of the Analayo and Brahmali vendetta against MN 117, he conceded it was wrong. He no longer disparages MN 117. He was happy for me to live in his monastery, despite conflicting dhamma views. When I first met him when he visited our area, he choose to sleep in the native forest/bush (rather than accept accommodation). He appeared well practised to me. Plus Sutta Central is the best sutta resource ever.

:anjali:

santa100
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:22 am
Well, I have met and spoken to him a few times. While I certainly do not accord with much of the mission he has chosen nor agree with many of his views, I found him very pleasant, with good skills, with good metta and very open minded. When pressed on the issue of the Analayo and Brahmali vendetta against MN 117, he conceded it was wrong, which is why he no longer disparages MN 117. He was happy for me to live in his monastery, despite conflicting dhamma views. When I first met him when he visited our area, he choose to sleep in the native forest/bush (rather than accept accommodation). He appeared well practised to me. Plus Sutta Central is the best sutta resource ever.

:anjali:
Key points highlighted. Since you seem to have a good experience with him, why don't you contact him to have him correct his translation mistake of DN 31. You actually spotted this error first, credit to you. :anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:42 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:33 am
Since you seem to have a good experience with him, why don't you contact him to have him correct his translation mistake of DN 31.
Lol. If I did that then I would have to also send many very long letters to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro and all of the other translators. :roll:

santa100
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:42 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:33 am
Since you seem to have a good experience with him, why don't you contact him to have him correct his translation mistake of DN 31.
Lol. If I did that then I would have to also send many very long letters to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro and all of the other translators. :roll:
If you wholeheartely believe there're real mistakes, why not? Please do. Sujato's DN 31 mistake is as explicit and blatant as it gets. Bodhi's and Thanissaro's aren't perfect but I haven't seen anything of theirs even close to the absurdity level of Sujato's.
Last edited by santa100 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:46 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:44 am
If you wholeheartely believe there're real mistakes, why not? Please do.
Since I cannot even convince you about Dhamma matters, how can I convince them? Buddhism is sectarian. Different monks appear to deliberately make different offerings to the spiritual marketplace.

:focus:

santa100
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:46 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:44 am
If you wholeheartely believe there're real mistakes, why not? Please do.
Since I cannot even convince you about Dhamma matters, how can I convince them? Buddhism is sectarian. Different monks appear to deliberately make different offerings to the spiritual marketplace.

:focus:
No he did not. Not in that DN 31 case. By the way, that's flawed logic again. I'm only a puthujjana with lots of work to do, but you should have much better luck with Bodhi/Thanissaro, provided that you make a strong case with backup resources and literature.

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:51 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:47 am
No he did not. Not in that DN 31 case.
Maybe he has compassion and does not wish to cause people to worry; given what was omitted is rarely practised in the West and probably has greatly declined in Asia. I recall posting this passage once on this forum and an Australian member accused me of accusing him of being a bad father for not arranging the marriage of his daughter/s. :|

The important issue is there are alternate translations of DN 31; including on Sutta Central. :)

santa100
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:51 am
santa100 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:47 am
No he did not. Not in that DN 31 case.
Maybe he has compassion and does not wish to cause people to worry; given what was omitted is rarely practised in the West and probably has greatly declined in Asia. I recall posting this passage once on this forum and an Australian member accused me of accusing him of being a bad father for not arranging the marriage of his daughter/s. :|

The important issue is there are alternate translations of DN 31; including on Sutta Central. :)
I disagree. Who does he think he is to twist and bend, add and remove words from the original scripture? I'll post it here again:
DN 31 - Sujato wrote:It appears Sujato deliberately skips the item for suttacentral still hasn't replied after I sent an email requesting them to correct the error thru their contact address: suttacentral.net@gmail.com. It's one thing to differ in interpretations regarding a sutta passage but it's just plain wrong to deliberately tinker with the original source by adding/removing sutta text. One's already made a fool out of himself for in this case, the paragraph clearly states five items but only list four. Actually this is worse than what's described in Drum Peg sutta for in that sutta, the Dasaharas folks only inserted a peg after the drum was splitted, but in this case, the Dhamma drum was deliberately splitted first!:

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:02 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:28 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:30 am
I know why people are wealthy and why they are not, which includes myself (because I know exactly the causes for the wealth I earned and the wealth I did not earn). Its got nothing to do with being generous in a past life.
How do you know this? Do you have iddhi powers? It could be from past life good kamma.
Thanks David, as I posted, it does not make sense to me, particularly because there are many more suttas that refer acquiring wealth in harmless ways and not acquired wealth in harmful ways and also refer to acquiring wealth through efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow. In other words, wealth, according to the suttas, can be acquired in very harmful and immoral ways therefore the correlation between virtue & wealth in MN 135 is highly tenuous to me. Plus, as i said, the reality of the world is much wealth has been acquired immorally; via colonialism, slavery, the opium trade, wars, cartels, sanctions on nations, environmental destruction, etc. The list of evil wealth is endless. Basically all empires used violence to accumulate wealth.
And what is the bliss of having? There is the case where the son of a good family has wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained. When he thinks, 'I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of having.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways
like to a bee that honey gathers,
riches mount up for him
like ant hill's rapid growth.

DN 31
Firstly, with his legitimate wealth—earned by his efforts and initiative, built up with his own hands, gathered by the sweat of the brow—he makes himself happy and pleased, keeping himself properly happy.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.41/en/sujato
First, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.91/en/sujato
Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.

DN 15

James Tan
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Re: Bhante Sujatos and karmic snobbery.

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:49 am

https://suttacentral.net/an5.37/en/bodhi

“Bhikkhus, a donor who gives food gives the recipients five things. What five? One gives life, beauty, happiness, strength, and discernment. (1) Having given life, one partakes of life, whether celestial or human. (2) Having given beauty, one partakes of beauty, whether celestial or human. (3) Having given happiness, one partakes of happiness, whether celestial or human. (4) Having given strength, one partakes of strength, whether celestial or human. (5) Having given discernment, one partakes of discernment, whether celestial or human. A donor who gives food gives the recipients these five things.”

The wise one is a giver of life,
strength, beauty, and discernment.
The intelligent one is a donor of happiness
and in turn acquires happiness.

Having given life, strength, beauty,
happiness, and discernment,
one is long-lived and famous
wherever one is reborn.
:reading:

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