Translating a MN 140 passage

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DooDoot
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Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Dear Pali gurus and sutta students

In MN 140 there is the following passage, translated differently by Bhikkhus Sujato, Bodhi and Thanissaro, as follows:
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a painful feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

Dukkhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a neutral feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

Adukkhamasukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.

So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;

If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.

dukkhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;

If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached.

adukkhamasukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti.

Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’

So kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti, jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti,

They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’

‘kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ jīvitapariyādānā idheva sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītībhavissantī’ti pajānāti.

Sujato https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’

Bodhi
"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

Thanissaro
I sense Bhikkhu Sujato's translation is the most realistic; where as the translations of Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanissaro sound vague or obtuse to me. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations appears to infer the feeling is terminating rather than the body is terminating.

I sense the translation should read as follows:
Feeling with the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel [a feeling arising from] when/with the ending of the body approaching.’ Feeling [a feeling arising from] the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel [this feeling arising from] the end of life approaching.’
In other words, what is felt is those painful feelings (and other feelings) that arise from when the body is weak, without energy, in pain, etc, when life is ending.

What do we think? Thanks :smile:

santa100
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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by santa100 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:I sense Bhikkhu Sujato's translation is the most realistic; where as the translations of Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanissaro sound vague or obtuse to me. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations appears to infer the feeling is terminating rather than the body is terminating.
Actually Ven. Bodhi and Thanissaro's versions are more accurate (Thanissaro's being the best imho). There're 2 separate connotations in 2 separate sentences. And Sujato's version makes one tend to interprete both as meaning the same thing: the death of an arahant. Bodhi/Thanissaro's versions maintain the 2 separate connotations:
MN 140 wrote:1. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.'
Doesn't mean "the body is terminating". It means that the arhant only experiences bodily feelings, while worldlings experience both mental and bodily feelings (ie. the Double-arrows/Double-pains simile of SN 36.6)
2. When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.'
This is the end-of-life meaning. The arahant continues to experience feeling only as far as the body with its life faculty continues, but not beyond that.

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by ToVincent » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:48 am


When experiencing a feeling limited by the body [the transient ka-ya / the field of sensory experience (ayatana), that is "not my own" (the other translation of "anicca")] ; one discerns that 'I am experiencing a feeling limited by the body (that is not my own). 'When experiencing a feeling limited to life [AV. ŚBr.] (as a living being, जीवित jīvita RV. - "that wishes to live"), one discerns that 'I am experiencing a feeling limited by the living being (that wishes to remain alive).'

So kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti, jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti,


In pre-Buddhist Upanishadic Vedism, kaya meant "what belongs to Ka", the god Prajapati made living being. This Ka is the jīvita, the living being. In Upanishadic Vedism, Ka & I are the same. Ka is nicca (my own self). They are Brahma/Prajapati.
Which is not the case in Buddhism. Where kaya is not my own (anicca), because impermanent (the other meaning of anicca) - that is to say, neither continuous, nor blissful, as Ka is supposed to be in the Upanishads.
In other words, the Buddhist kaya is just an internal ayatana, a field of sensory experience, not permanent, not continuous, not my own and not blissful.

जीवित jīvita [pp. jīv]
- living being RV.
√ जीव् jīv
- to live , be or remain alive RV.
- to live by Mn. MBh.
- to make alive RV. ĀśvŚr. MBh.
- to wish to live KātyŚr. MBh.
- to seek a livelihood , wish to live by Mn. MBh.

jīvita-pari-yanti-kaṃ
yanta = यन्त्र yantra
- any instrument for holding or restraining or fastening , a support RV.
- a fetter , band , tie , thong , rein Mn. MBh.

jīvita-pari-(y) - ādānā
[pari+ādāna; opp. upādāna "taking up completely"]
- finishing, end.

One finds out (pajānāti) that, with the disunion from the body, with the end of the living being, in the upper regions (uddhaṃ = ऊर्ध्व ūrdhva - AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr. MBh. Mn.) beyond death, all that is sensed, not being an object of pleasure, will become cold in this world [idheva - fr. इह iha] (of senses).'

‘kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ jīvitapariyādānā idheva sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītībhavissantī’ti pajānāti.


It does not necessarily mean that one must die.
In the higher jhanas, one just goes beyond the realm of death.
(See 5th jhana "with the vanishing of perceptions (based) on the organ of senses" - https://justpaste.it/19eb6).
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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DooDoot
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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:02 am

santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm
Actually Ven. Bodhi and Thanissaro's versions are more accurate (Thanissaro's being the best imho).
Thanks for your effort but I posted this inquiry on the Pali forum; seeking a discussion of how the Pali translates into English. In other words, it seems like you are posting your own ideas rather than posting about the Pali.
santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm
Doesn't mean "the body is terminating". It means that the arhant only experiences bodily feelings, while worldlings experience both mental and bodily feelings (ie. the Double-arrows/Double-pains simile of SN 36.6
The above would have to be supported by the Pali. I will take a look. Thanks. However, the following makes your idea questionable because what you call "bodily-feelings" are now "life-feelings", which sounds strange:
When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.'
:candle:
santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm
This is the end-of-life meaning. The arahant continues to experience feeling only as far as the body with its life faculty continues, but not beyond that.
I think you are too influenced by SN 36.6, which use of "kāyikañca and cetasikañca" is another topic (because " sorrow or pine or lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion" is not a vedana but is sankhara).

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:51 am

santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm
Actually Ven. Bodhi and Thanissaro's versions are more accurate (Thanissaro's being the best imho).
OK. I'll focus on Thanissaro, who has translated the word 'pariyantika' very literally, per the dictionary.
pariyantika
adjective (-˚)
ending in, bounded or limited by

fr. pariyanta

pariyanta
1. limit, end, climax, border SN.i.80 (manāpa˚ “limit-point in enjoyment”

2. limit, boundary, restriction, limitation

3. (adj. ˚) bounded by, limited by, surrounded, ending in
The whole translation appears dependent on two similar sounding terms although they might have their differences, namely, pariyantika & pariyādāna:
Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’

So kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti, jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti,

They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’

‘kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ jīvitapariyādānā idheva sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītībhavissantī’ti pajānāti
'Pariyādāna' is used in the last sentence, which is unambiguous, since it undoubtedly refers to the termination of life, i.e., the breaking up of the aggregates (kaya). The dictionary says:
“taking up completely,” i.e. using up, consummation, consumption finishing, end
Even more clearly, pariyādāna is used in the following sentence in MN 140:
As the oil and the wick are used up, it would be extinguished due to lack of fuel.

tasseva telassa ca vaṭṭiyā ca pariyādānā aññassa ca anupahārā anāhāro nibbāyati;
Similarly, SN 12.52:
As the original fuel is used up and no more is added, the bonfire would be extinguished due to lack of fuel.

Evañhi so, bhikkhave, mahāaggikkhandho purimassa ca upādānassa pariyādānā aññassa ca anupahārā anāhāro nibbāyeyya.
So returning to pariyantika, lets look if it exists in other sutta contexts:

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:23 am

DooDoot wrote:it seems like you are posting your own ideas rather than posting about the Pali.
The Pali never supports the idea of Sujato and possibly you to lump together KayaPariyantika and JivitaPariyantika (yes, one has to be specific on exactly what Pariyantike he talks about, not simply going by Pariyantika) to both mean the death of the arahant. There were 2 separate sentences with 2 separate connotations. It doesn't make sense for 2 sentences to say the same thing. Bodhi and Thanissaro made the right call here. Sujato did not.

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:27 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:23 am
DooDoot wrote:it seems like you are posting your own ideas rather than posting about the Pali.
The Pali never supports the idea of Sujato and possibly you to lump together KayaPariyantika and JivitaPariyantika (yes, one has to be specific on exactly what Pariyantike he talks about, not simply going by Pariyantika) to both mean the death of the arahant. There were 2 separate sentences with 2 separate connotations. It doesn't make sense for 2 sentences to say the same thing. Bodhi and Thanissaro made the right call here. Sujato did not.
Thanks but I am still looking plus you are not discussing the Pali.

Now the key phrase is: "kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī". "Pariyantikaṃ" is an adjective. It appears Sujato has attached the adjective to "kaya" where as Thanissaro has attached to the adjective to the "vedana". Also, "vedana" is used twice but Sujato only translates it once. However, this does not change anything.

Therefore, it seems the rules about Pali compounds might need to be looked at for "kāyapariyantikaṃ". I don't know anything about Pali but I guess if Thanissaro and Bodhi were correct then "vedana" would be included in the compound. :shrug:

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:27 am
Thanks but I am still looking plus you are not discussing the Pali.

Now the key phrase is: "kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī". "Pariyantikaṃ" is an adjective. It appears Sujato has attached the adjective to "kaya" where as Thanissaro has attached to the adjective to the "vedana". Also, "vedana" is used twice but Sujato only translates it once. However, this does not change anything.

Therefore, it seems the rules about Pali compounds might need to be looked at for "kāyapariyantikaṃ". I don't know anything about Pali but I guess if Thanissaro and Bodhi were correct then "vedana" would be included in the compound. :shrug:
Only arahants would know anything for sure. But at least we know for sure that it wouldn't be a good idea for Sujato to simply drop the vedana part whenever he feels like it. Bodhi/Thanissaro consistently stick with the translation. Who's right and who's wrong might not have an answer for now. But at least they did their job as translators by sticking with the scripts and not keep/drop words that suit/not-suit their preference.

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:10 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:09 am
Only arahants would know anything for sure. But at least we know for sure that it wouldn't be a good idea for Sujato to simply drop the vedana part whenever he feels like it. Bodhi/Thanissaro consistently stick with the translation. Who's right and who's wrong might not have an answer for now. But at least they did their job as translators by sticking with the scripts and not keep and drop words that suit their preference.
I said before, while I am grateful for your efforts here, this is the Pali forum. The only question to be asked is how should the following be translated:
"kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī".
My speculation is if Thanissaro's translation was correct, the Pali would be "kāyapariyantikavedanaṃ vedayāmī". If you don't know the Pali rules, it might be best to restrict (pariyantika) or place a limit (pariyantika) on your participation on this topic.

Thanks :thanks:

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:20 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:10 am
My speculation is if Thanissaro's translation was correct, the Pali would be "kāyapariyantikavedanaṃ vedayāmī". If you don't know the Pali rules, it might be best to restrict (pariyantika) or place a limit (pariyantika) on your participation on this topic.

Thanks :thanks:
Actually since you don't seem to know much about Pali yourself, maybe you shouldn't pick a side with a translator before raising the OP, especially someone with a not-so-clean track record. Thanks. :thanks:

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:20 am
Actually since you don't seem to know much about Pali yourself, maybe you shouldn't pick a side with a translator before raising the OP, especially someone with a not-so-clean track record. Thanks.
I am trying to learn. As for the translators, I am confident none are 100% correct. :focus:
When nouns join together with two or more words they are called nominal compounds or samāsa.
The first member of a compound can be another noun, an adjective, an adverb, a pronoun, a verbal
form, or a numeral. In general the last member of the compound gets inflected according to its
declension while the other members keep their stem form. When joined the usual sandhi-formations
of lengthening, shortening, elision etc. may need to get applied.

Nominal compounds take their name according to the procedure or the form they take and their
function when combined. Thus two or more members instead of being connected with the participle
ca getting joined together and function as copulative compound are called a) dvanda samāsa. A
combination where one member, usually the second modifies the first and functions as descriptive
compound is called b) khammadharaya samāsa. In cases where the first member depends on the
second (dependent compounds) it is named c) tappurisa samāsa. In cases where nominal compounds
convey an adjective sense its term is d) bahubbihi samāsa. Compounds that function as adverbial
compounds or indeclinables, generally constructed from prefix + noun or indeclinable + noun are
called e) avyayībhāva samāsa. Here the first member predominates the second. One more group
denoting a period of time with the first member being a numeral is called f) dīgu samāsa.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 am
I am trying to learn:
Then a word of advice, go with the guys with cleaner track record.

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:54 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:24 am
Then a word of advice, go with the guys with cleaner track record.
Thanks but I won't take your advice. Its off topic. Plus it infers Thanissaro has a cleaner record than Sujato because Bodhi's translation of 'pariyantika' is closer to Sujato's. As for my speculation about Pali word compounds previously posted, it appears it is wrong since the different types of feelings are not found in word compounds in the suttas:
Feeling born of contact through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind.
cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā, kāyasamphassajā vedanā, manosamphassajā vedanā.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.
So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;

If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;
However, this error does not change the question. The respective translations of kaya-pariyantika are:

1. Sujato = end of the body approaching

2. Bodhi = terminating with the body

3. Thanissaro = limited to the body
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:08 am, edited 4 times in total.

santa100
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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:03 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:54 am
santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:24 am
Then a word of advice, go with the guys with cleaner track record.
Thanks but I won't take your advice. Its off topic. As for my speculation previously posted, it appears it is wrong since the type of feelings are not found in compounds:
Feeling born of contact through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind.
cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā, kāyasamphassajā vedanā, manosamphassajā vedanā.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.
So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;

If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;
Maybe because not following a commonse sense advice that leaves you in this perpetual state of confusion. But hey, none of my business to tell you what to do.

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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:15 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:10 am
Well, confusion is very simple for me, someone citing all lengthly flowery words to arrive at nothing. It's never on my track record for doing that. But for you...hmm
My view is the inference about SN 36.6 lacks common sense. If MN 140 was referring to feeling limited to the body, it would not use the term "limited to life". This is simply too vague.

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