OMG it's a rebirth thread

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:21 pm

Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:One problem i find though with explanations of continuation is the "rebirth" linking consciousness. Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?

Anyone who could clear this up for me i would be very grateful :namaste:
There is a physical base for consciousness, but the physical base of consciousness is subject to impermanence (aniccata) too. If we accept that consciousness is not itself physical, yet that it is dependent on the physical, we can also accept that consciousness needn't be constrained by the laws of the physical universe. Thus one moment of consciousness in this bundle of aggregates, can condition a moment of consciousness in a newly conceived bundle of aggregates, so long as there is a physical base for consciousness to arise.

Hence perhaps the discussion we had on "gandhabba" here (http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 55&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by clw_uk » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:23 pm

Thanks retrofuturist,

I had feeling this had been touched upon before but thought id ask just in case :namaste:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by kc2dpt » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:09 am

clw_uk wrote:Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form[?]
Yes.
so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?

Anyone who could clear this up for me i would be very grateful :namaste:
The name and form for the death-consciousness is the dying body.
The name and form for the linking-consciousness is the newly conceived body (aka union of egg and sperm).
- Peter

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:38 am

clw_uk wrote: One problem i find though with explanations of continuation is the "rebirth" linking consciousness. Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?
There's no form in the formless realms...

Metta
Mike

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by dumb bonbu » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:49 am

Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou :thanks:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by christopher::: » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Best Rebirth Thread Ever.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
:clap:
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~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:57 am

Greetings dumb bonbu,
dumb bonbu wrote:beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou :thanks:
I think it's more likely that (in the context of Theravada Buddhism) that you are right and that Individual is wrong.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by dumb bonbu » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings dumb bonbu,
dumb bonbu wrote:beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou :thanks:
I think it's more likely that (in the context of Theravada Buddhism) that you are right and that Individual is wrong.

Metta,
Retro. :)
ah, okay i see. many thanks Retro!
Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.
MN 21

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:even post-mortem continuation implies that something is continuing.
There is continuation, but it's nothing different to the "ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination" which you mention in your post. This becoming occurs now and isn't stopped by conventional death. Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,

What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"

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Drolma

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:49 am

Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"
I think our kammic tendencies towards becoming are far more resilient than this physical body which will die of its own accord after several decades of use. Unless the fetter of ignorance is destroyed, those mental forces that tend to craving and becoming will, in the form of a gandhabba, condition the arising of consciousness in a new embryo.

Apologies if the above terminology is a bit loose. It's not something I tend to focus on in terms of my practice, here-and-now. What I do know from practice here and now is how unremitting craving and becoming is, especially in their subtle forms. They don't "re" but becoming occurs very frequently and much effort and diligence is required to slow and stop it, even temporarily.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:58 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"
I think our kammic tendencies towards becoming are far more resilient than this physical body which will die of its own accord after several decades of use. Unless the fetter of ignorance is destroyed, those mental forces that tend to craving and becoming will, in the form of a gandhabba, condition the arising of consciousness in a new embryo.

Apologies if the above terminology is a bit loose. It's not something I tend to focus on in terms of my practice, here-and-now. What I do know from practice here and now is how unremitting craving and becoming is, especially in their subtle forms. They don't "re" but becoming occurs very frequently and much effort and diligence is required to slow and stop it, even temporarily.

Metta,
Retro. :)
No worries, I understand perfectly what you're saying. Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.

So, then, you like the new phrase I coined! :pig:

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Individual » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Retrofuturist, there's a problem with that analogy, though: a candle lights another because the flame on one wick connects with the other wick. The final moment of consciousness in this life is located in a completely different place than the consciousness of the next life, sometimes even a completely different realm. Based on this, to maintain consistency with the orderliness of kamma, I've inferred that there seems to be the necessity for an "intermediary state" of some kind. By this, I don't mean necessarily an "intermediary state" of consciousness between death and birth, but a karmic foundation to explicitly connect the previous death with the following birth. And the bardos of Tibetan Buddhism seem to offer clarity on this karmic connection, in my opinion (if I may say so), without really contradicting the Theravadin perspective on rebirth.
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:02 am

Greetings Individual,

I'd recommend reading what venerable Dhammanando said in the gandhabba thread, if you've not done so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:07 am

Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.
It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:08 am

Individual wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Retrofuturist, there's a problem with that analogy, though: a candle lights another because the flame on one wick connects with the other wick. The final moment of consciousness in this life is located in a completely different place than the consciousness of the next life, sometimes even a completely different realm. Based on this, to maintain consistency with the orderliness of kamma, I've inferred that there seems to be the necessity for an "intermediary state" of some kind. By this, I don't mean necessarily an "intermediary state" of consciousness between death and birth, but a karmic foundation to explicitly connect the previous death with the following birth. And the bardos of Tibetan Buddhism seem to offer clarity on this karmic connection, in my opinion (if I may say so), without really contradicting the Theravadin perspective on rebirth.
Hi Individual,

If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.

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