Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

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sentinel
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Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by sentinel »

Greetings to all ,

Can anyone point out which text described Buddha disciples whom attained to the sakadagami and anagami stage while still alive ?


Thanks .
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Nicolas
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by Nicolas »

Mahāvaccha Sutta (MN 73) wrote: “Leaving aside Master Gotama, the monks, and the nuns, is there even a single layman disciple of Master Gotama—white-clothed and celibate—who, with the ending of the five lower fetters, is reborn spontaneously, to be extinguished there, not liable to return from that world?” “There are not just one hundred such celibate laymen who are my disciples, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that.”
Khemaka Sutta (SN 22.89) wrote: Although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been uprooted.
I'm sure there are more.
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

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sentinel
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by sentinel »

Nicolas wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:56 pm
Mahāvaccha Sutta (MN 73) wrote: “Leaving aside Master Gotama, the monks, and the nuns, is there even a single layman disciple of Master Gotama—white-clothed and celibate—who, with the ending of the five lower fetters, is reborn spontaneously, to be extinguished there, not liable to return from that world?” “There are not just one hundred such celibate laymen who are my disciples, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that.”
Khemaka Sutta (SN 22.89) wrote: Although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been uprooted.
I'm sure there are more.
Please point out BY NAME the disciple of the Buddha and formally announced by Himself WHICH of his " disciple " already attained to the sakadagami and anagami stage in this very life Not after breakup of the aggregates and get reborn or next birth ?
Last edited by sentinel on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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sentinel
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by sentinel »

santa100 wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:27 pm A lot more indeed
I was looking for a person WITH NAME stated in the sutta where s/he was Declared sakadagami and anagami in this very life Not after breakup of the aggregates and get reborn or next birth .
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

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pitakele
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by pitakele »

Buddha confirms Ugga as a Non Returner
8. "If I were to pass away before the Blessed One, it wouldn’t be surprising if the Blessed One would declare of me: ‘There is no fetter bound by which the householder Ugga of Hatthigāma might return to this world." This is the eighth astounding and amazing quality found in me.

The Blessed One said: “Good, good, bhikkhu! I had declared that the householder Ugga of Vesālī possesses the same eight astounding and amazing qualities that he rightly explained to you. You should remember the householder Ugga of Vesālī as one who possesses these eight astounding and amazing qualities.”
https://suttacentral.net/an8.22/en/bodhi
See also https://suttacentral.net/an8.21/en/bodhi
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
santa100
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by santa100 »

James Tan wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:56 pm Image
Could you provide the source to the table you provided? There're some apparent errors, like an arahant can retrogress while a sotapanna cannot???
sentinel
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

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pitakele wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:44 pm Buddha confirms Ugga as a Non Returner
8. "If I were to pass away before the Blessed One, it wouldn’t be surprising if the Blessed One would declare of me: ‘There is no fetter bound by which the householder Ugga of Hatthigāma might return to this world." This is the eighth astounding and amazing quality found in me.

The Blessed One said: “Good, good, bhikkhu! I had declared that the householder Ugga of Vesālī possesses the same eight astounding and amazing qualities that he rightly explained to you. You should remember the householder Ugga of Vesālī as one who possesses these eight astounding and amazing qualities.”
https://suttacentral.net/an8.22/en/bodhi
See also https://suttacentral.net/an8.21/en/bodhi
Sorry friend, it does not stated him as sakadagami or anagami but said he might not return to this world .
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sentinel
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by sentinel »

santa100 wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:57 pm
James Tan wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:56 pm Image
Could you provide the source to the table you provided? There're some apparent errors, like an arahant can retrogress while a sotapanna cannot???
http://hdl.handle.net/10722/241399
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pitakele
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by pitakele »

James Tan wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:22 am
See also https://suttacentral.net/an8.21/en/bodhi

Sorry friend, it does not stated him as sakadagami or anagami but said he might not return to this world .
Did you read the second sutta I mentioned?
8. Of the five lower fetters taught by the Blessed One, I don’t see any that I haven’t abandoned.
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by Dhammanando »

James Tan wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:22 am Sorry friend, it does not stated him as sakadagami or anagami but said he might not return to this world .
I think you've misunderstood the translator's English idiom:

"There is no fetter bound by which the householder Ugga of Hatthigāma might return to this world," in simpler English means "Ugga doesn't have any fetter that would cause him to return to this world," which means that it's not possible for him to return to it.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
sentinel
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:39 am
James Tan wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:22 am Sorry friend, it does not stated him as sakadagami or anagami but said he might not return to this world .
I think you've misunderstood the translator's English idiom:

"There is no fetter bound by which the householder Ugga of Hatthigāma might return to this world," in simpler English means "Ugga doesn't have any fetter that would cause him to return to this world," which means that it's not possible for him to return to it.
I see , but does the Pali mentioned the term Sakadagami /Anagami then ?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Why sakadagami and anagami disciples not found ?

Post by Dhammanando »

James Tan wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:53 am I see , but does the Pali mentioned the term Sakadagami /Anagami then ?
No, but it describes a person who is one. The feature attributed to Ugga wouldn't apply if he wasn't one.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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