Does kamma determined our birth ?

[DooDoot]

It was not wise to build the atomic bombs from a Buddhist POV

I think the above is sufficient to question your own point of view that "wisdom" & "IQ" are the same. The ways of the world are not the same as the way of Buddhism. Refer to the Lokavagga.

it was a wise decision to have the Americans build it before Germany.

DW is now exclusively a Buddhism forum and no longer a place for personal accounts of history.

Likewise being born jewish in Nazi Germany is the result of far different kamma than being born jewish in Britain or the US in the same time period or in Germany after the defeat of the Nazis.

Around 2/3 of Jews in Germany left Germany from 1933 to1939. The 1/3 that stayed behind either couldn't leave for political reasons (refer to Evian Conference and page 36) or financial reasons or simply regarded themselves as "Germans" (start of 2 hour video, first 10 minutes). I think the fate of any Jews left behind in Germany after 1941 was unrelated to ideas of past life kamma but simply due to present life circumstances & decisions.

adolf hitler

Is this saying when Adolf Hitler passed away on 30 April 1945, he was reborn in Hiroshima or Nagasaki; making decision to nuke these cities on 6 Aug. 1945 and 9 Aug. 1945 a "wise" decision?

[DooDoot]

No, those scenarios dont might possibly pertain to the present life because it literally says

So tena kammena evaṃ samattena evaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati.

Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .nymo.html

Thanks but the above quote "literally" does not say anything specific because it is merely a translation in English. I think we have discussed before that Pali words translated as "death" often may not mean the termination of life (example Dhp 21). Regardless, AN 4.197 I quoted does not include the above words (below). In other words, similar teaching but different Pali words.

“Take a female who is irritable and bad-tempered.

“Idha, mallike, ekacco mātugāmo kodhanā hoti upāyāsabahulā.

Even when criticized a little bit she loses her temper, becoming annoyed, hostile, and hard-hearted, and displaying annoyance, hate, and bitterness.

Appampi vuttā samānā abhisajjati kuppati byāpajjati patitthīyati, kopañca dosañca appaccayañca pātukaroti.

She doesn’t give to ascetics or brahmins such things as food, drink, clothing, vehicles; garlands, fragrance, and makeup; and bed, house, and lighting.

Sā na dātā hoti samaṇassa vā brāhmaṇassa vā annaṃ pānaṃ vatthaṃ yānaṃ mālāgandhavilepanaṃ seyyāvasathapadīpeyyaṃ.

And she’s jealous,

Issāmanikā kho pana hoti;

envying, resenting, and begrudging the possessions, honor, respect, reverence, homage, and veneration given to others.

paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu issati upadussati issaṃ bandhati.

If she comes back to this state of existence after passing away, wherever she is reborn she’s ugly, unattractive, and bad-looking;

Sā ce tato cutā itthattaṃ āgacchati, sā yattha yattha paccājāyati dubbaṇṇā ca hoti durūpā supāpikā dassanāya;

and poor, with few assets and possessions; and insignificant.

daliddā ca hoti appassakā appabhogā appesakkhā ca.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.197/en/sujato

Note: The Pali word "cutā" appears to not mean "passing away" as in the "ending of life", as follows:

Sace cuto sīlavatato hoti,
Pavedhatī kamma virādhayitvā;
Pajappatī patthayatī ca suddhiṃ,
Satthāva hīno pavasaṃ gharamhā.

If he falls away from virtuous conduct and vows,
He is anxious, having failed in his task.
He yearns and longs for purity, as one far from home
Who has lost his travelling companions.

https://suttacentral.net/snp4.13/en/mills

[Dinsdale]

Does our birth such as born deformed or with single leg/arm , as male/female , with higher /lower IQ , take birth as a King , being born as African , born rich /poor etc etc all has to do with previous life kamma ? What about being born as animals and insects ?

The impression I have from the suttas is that kamma is more about which realm one "reappears" in due to one's actions, and not so much about the details of another birth in the same realm.
It's rather like the game of snakes and ladders, though of course kamma is a game of intention rather than chance.

[DooDoot]

Another text with different Pali words; which may not be related to kamma:

“… the sentient beings born on land are few, while those born in water are many. …”

… “Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakā te sattā ye thalajā; atha kho eteva bahutarā sattā ye udakajā. Taṃ kissa hetu … pe ….

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.65/en/sujato

[sentinel]

You are correct that it [my post] is not supported by evidence.

AN 8.29 appears to provide evidence that what certain translators translate as "rebirth" or "reborn" into one of the five realms (animal, hell, ghost, human, god) is not the same as when "born" in a geographical region because the Pali for these contexts is different. Even though the translators (eg. Sujato & Bodhi) often translate different Pali words the same, this is evidence the translators may be wrong and evidence that "rebirth" into one of five realms is not the same as "rebirth" in Africa or Australia.

Firstly, a Realized One has arisen in the world—perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed. He teaches the Dhamma leading to peace, extinguishment, awakening, as proclaimed by the Holy One.

Idha, bhikkhave, tathāgato ca loke uppanno hoti arahaṃ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā, dhammo ca desiyati opasamiko parinibbāniko sambodhagāmī sugatappavedito;

But a person has been reborn in hell.

ayañca puggalo nirayaṃ upapanno hoti.

This is the first lost opportunity for spiritual practice.

Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, paṭhamo akkhaṇo asamayo brahmacariyavāsāya.

Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world.

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, tathāgato ca loke uppanno hoti … pe … satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā, dhammo ca desiyati opasamiko parinibbāniko sambodhagāmī sugatappavedito;

But a person has been reborn in the animal realm. This is the second lost opportunity.

ayañca puggalo tiracchānayoniṃ upapanno hoti … pe …. (2)

Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world.

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave … pe …

But a person has been reborn in the ghost realm. This is the third lost opportunity.

ayañca puggalo pettivisayaṃ upapanno hoti … pe …. (3)

Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world.

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave … pe …

But a person has been reborn in one of the long-lived orders of gods. This is the fourth lost opportunity.

ayañca puggalo aññataraṃ dīghāyukaṃ devanikāyaṃ upapanno hoti … pe …. (4)

Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world.

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave … pe …

But a person has been reborn in the borderlands, among barbarian tribes, where monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen do not go. This is the fifth lost opportunity …

ayañca puggalo paccantimesu janapadesu paccājāto hoti, so ca hoti aviññātāresu milakkhesu, yattha natthi gati bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīnaṃ upāsakānaṃ upāsikānaṃ … pe …. (5)

Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world. And a person is reborn in a central country. But they have wrong view and distorted perspective:

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave … pe … ayañca puggalo majjhimesu janapadesu paccājāto hoti, so ca hoti micchādiṭṭhiko viparītadassano:

https://suttacentral.net/an8.29/en/sujato

Both Bhikkhus Sujato & Bodhi translated the words "upapanno" and "paccājāto" the same; even though the Pali words are different. This is evidence that the mechanism for "appearance" in a realm vs a geographical location is different.

Similarly, AN 6.57 provides evidence of the above. If these words meant the same thing, why would the Buddha use different Pali words?

And how does someone born into a dark class give rise to a dark result?

Kathañcānanda, kaṇhābhijātiyo samāno kaṇhaṃ dhammaṃ abhijāyati?

It’s when someone is reborn in a low family—a family of outcastes, bamboo-workers, hunters, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors—poor, with little to eat or drink, where life is tough, and food and shelter are hard to find.

Idhānanda, ekacco nīce kule paccājāto hoti—caṇḍālakule vā nesādakule vā venakule vā rathakārakule vā pukkusakule vā, dalidde appannapānabhojane kasiravuttike, yattha kasirena ghāsacchādo labbhati.

And they’re ugly, unsightly, deformed, chronically ill—one-eyed, crippled, lame, or half-paralyzed. They don’t get to have food, drink, clothes, and vehicles; garlands, fragrance, and makeup; or bed, house, and lighting.

So ca hoti dubbaṇṇo duddasiko okoṭimako bavhābādho kāṇo vā kuṇī vā khañjo vā pakkhahato vā, na lābhī annassa pānassa vatthassa yānassa mālāgandhavilepanassa seyyāvasathapadīpeyyassa.

And they do bad things by way of body, speech, and mind.

So kāyena duccaritaṃ carati, vācāya duccaritaṃ carati, manasā duccaritaṃ carati.

When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

So kāyena duccaritaṃ caritvā, vācāya duccaritaṃ caritvā, manasā duccaritaṃ caritvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.57/en/sujato

In early Buddhist texts jhāna (the noun for a particular state of integration achieved in meditation) is sometimes equivalent to rebirth in a devaloka. The verb for entering a jhāna state and for being reborn is upapajjati and its derivatives (upapanno, upapatti).

For Buddhists entering (upa√pad) jhāna is functionally equivalent to rebirth (upa√pad) in the homologous deva realm.


Paccājāta（come to a new existence）
, returning back to being born again .

[TRobinson465]

Is this saying when Adolf Hitler passed away on 30 April 1945, he was reborn in Hiroshima or Nagasaki; making decision to nuke these cities on 6 Aug. 1945 and 9 Aug. 1945 a "wise" decision?

I have no idea how u got that. I'm talking about creating them. Not using them. There was no way they would've known they could defeat Germany without them. It was precautionary to build them

[TRobinson465]

DW is now exclusively a Buddhism forum and no longer a place for personal accounts of history.

I was expressing my pov using a real world example. Unless u are DWs owner or admin. U don't have the right to say what I can and can't say.

[santa100]

This is a question, an enquiry, with the understanding that performing the kamma , deeds, intentions of unwholesomeness will lead a person to such situations .
But , the question of example to be born as an African (or Asian or Westerners) does not point to inferiority or superiority . Just asking , what determined one take birth in different forms / appearances?

The 1st paragraph is fairly obvious per the many sutta references contributed by many great posts above. Regarding the 2nd para., of course being born into a certain race doesn't carry any inferiority/superiority connotation. It simply means a being will get reborn into an environrment most conducive to the manifestation of his/her kamma (ie. one's reborn as a child in some wartorn Africa region as an African not because of any race connotation, but because that specific environment is the most conducive to manifest past evil kamma such that s/he becomes a child soldier who commits mass atrocities at such young age; while for kids in Asia or Western countries, there'd be minimal chance for the kamma of a child soldier to manifest there).

[DooDoot]

Paccājāta（come to a new existence）, returning back to being born again .

Thanks James but I already provided many quotes that give the impression paccājāta is used differently to upapanno, upapatti.

The verb for entering a jhāna state and for being reborn is upapajjati and its derivatives (upapanno, upapatti).

It is probably beneficial if you provide some quotes, James. Thanks

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

So kho ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/sujato

jāyati ?

When the mind isn’t polluted, joy springs up.
tassa abyāsittacittassa pāmojjaṃ jāyati.

Being joyful, rapture springs up.
Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.97/en/sujato

I was expressing my pov....

Possibly, but I think I provided enough quotes to show "kamma" probably does not lead to "reincarnation" in a "geographical location". AN 6.63 says:

And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[TRobinson465]

U didn't show anything. U just showed theres no evidence of that. And as I said b4 i don't see why there would be

[DooDoot]

U didn't show anything. U just showed theres no evidence of that.

U mean i showed there is no record of the Buddha teaching it?

Likewise being born jewish in Nazi Germany is the result of far different kamma than being born jewish in Britain or the US in the same time period or in Germany after the defeat of the Nazis.

Is it being implied above that Jews born in Nazi Germany deserved or were predestined to their fate due to kamma those Jews made in past lives? If this is true, why was it wise to build atomic bombs if the Nazis were like Lord Yama's wardens dispensing justice? Sorry, but I struggle to understand the ideas above. Exactly what type of kamma did those Jews make in past lives that lead them to rebirth in Nazi Germany? If that past kamma was bad kamma then why did the Nazis do wrong deeds in the Holocaust? Did the Buddha teach it was wrong to punish people & to go to hell for bad kamma? I am just struggling to distinguish between the "good" and the "evil" above. Did those Jews deserve their rebirth in Germany due to their past kamma? If so, why was what happened in that rebirth in Germany wrong or different to the kammic inheritance in MN 130?

[TRobinson465]

U didn't show anything. U just showed theres no evidence of that.

U mean i showed there is no record of the Buddha teaching it?

Yes. I am sure nobody here will dispute your iron clad logic that there was no record of the Buddha teaching about people being born in Africa.

Is it being implied above that Jews born in Nazi Germany deserved or were predestined to their fate due to kamma those Jews made in past lives? If this is true, why was it wise to build atomic bombs if the Nazis were like Lord Yama's wardens dispensing justice? Sorry, but I struggle to understand the ideas above. Exactly what type of kamma did those Jews make in past lives that lead them to rebirth in Nazi Germany? If that past kamma was bad kamma then why did the Nazis do wrong deeds in the Holocaust? Did the Buddha teach it was wrong to punish people & to go to hell for bad kamma? I am just struggling to distinguish between the "good" and the "evil" above. Did those Jews deserve their rebirth in Germany due to their past kamma? If so, why was what happened in that rebirth in Germany wrong or different to the kammic inheritance in MN 130?

Okay first the Hitler reincarnation thing and now this? Where do you even get these wacky "meanings" that you like to put into other ppls mouths?

Events are the result of kamma, as seen when the Sakyas were invaded and MahaMogallana tried to intervene, but his psychic powers were rendered useless since kamma surpasses even psychic abilities and whatever mystics there are in the world or whatever. I am not enlightened so i do not know what those particular Jews did and im confident that you will proudly show that there is no record of the Buddha teaching about the Jews, as if that was some kind of a debate anyways. But if im not mistaken i think theres another thread on kamma being "recycled" when ppl do bad things to another person, maybe someone can be so kind as to put the link here. I do recall the kamma of maha moggallana killing his parents in a past life and thus being killed by bandits, who in turn created kamma for themselves something like that. So the king yama thing is ridiculous.

I am not going to sit here and answer all your questions since it seems likely you will put a bunch more wacko meanings into my comments that come from nowhere. I just want to be able to convey my thoughts and opinions on a subject without having my comments talked down upon or forced to submit to "rules" on what i can talk about by people who are not an admin or even the OP but acts as if they own the thread and have the right to say which responses are allowed.

[DooDoot]

Events are the result of kamma, as seen when the Sakyas were invaded and MahaMogallana tried to intervene

Do you mean when the Sakyas deceived, ridiculed & humiliated the neighboring King by giving him a slave girl to marry? I think the kamma on that occasion was visible in the here & now. The neighboring King was deceived, lied to & ridiculed & got angry and thus acted out his revenge upon the evil actions of the Sakyas.

I am not going to sit here and answer all your questions since it seems likely you will put a bunch more wacko meanings into my comments that come from nowhere.

I think my questions were reasonable because I am attempting to work out the moral law behind these ideas of past life kamma. For example, generally, in Asian society, ideas of past life kamma result inaction towards evil. For example, a child is abused and, instead of reporting this to the police, the people just say the abuse occurred due to past life kamma. While I do not personally agree with these beliefs; at least they makes logical sense to me. A person did evil in a past life and is then logically punished with abuse in the present life. But the idea that Jews were reborn in Nazi Germany due to bad past life kamma but then had to be saved with atomic bombs doesn't make sense to me. If all misfortune occurs due to past life kamma then there is no point being against evil/misfortune because the evil/misfortune is predetermined. Regards

[TRobinson465]

Events are the result of kamma, as seen when the Sakyas were invaded and MahaMogallana tried to intervene

Do you mean when the Sakyas deceived, ridiculed & humiliated the neighboring King by giving him a slave girl to marry? I think the kamma on that occasion was visible in the here & now. The neighboring King was deceived, lied to & ridiculed & got angry and thus acted out his revenge upon the evil actions of the Sakyas.

I didnt say the kamma had to be past life kamma. but if you must there is also the event of Devadatta hitting the Buddha with a rock (to sum it up quickly) which was the kamma of the buddha from a previous life where he killed his brother or something.

. But the idea that Jews were reborn in Nazi Germany due to bad past life kamma but then had to be saved with atomic bombs doesn't make sense to me. Regards

If you think thats what i was saying about atomic bombs you clearly werent reading my statements carefully.

I think my questions were reasonable because I am attempting to work out the moral law behind these ideas of past life kamma. For example, generally, in Asian society, ideas of past life kamma result inaction towards evil. For example, a child is abused and, instead of reporting this to the police, the people just say the abuse occurred due to past life kamma. While I do not personally agree with these beliefs; at least they makes logical sense to me. A person did evil in a past life and is then logically punished with abuse in the present life

I agree with you on this, its a bad mindset. but is a problem with any religion. God is all powerful and all misfortunes are part of his will etc. The rape was part of Gods will issue that happened in the US. the Dieu donné issue with kings in medieval Europe, the divine emporer of Japan and whatnot. i dont see any reason to think its generally asians or that its a problem in asian society. Im a bit curious where you got the idea that generally asians do this.

[DooDoot]

Im a bit curious where you got the idea that generally asians do this.

Because they do. This is the general religious belief in Hindu and Buddhist countries.