What is Nirodha?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:42 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:26 am
The "vi" prefix in vinnana means discriminative, or dual.
Its irrelevant because the suttas don't appear to provide this meaning. I already said what a word means in Sanskrit may not apply to Buddhism.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:26 am
What do you think is meant by cessation of vinnana in dependent origination?
I have already explained to you many times before. Since you have no interest, it is against Dhamma principles to explain to you again.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:26 am
I disagree. It is citta which takes on various qualities, not vinnnana. In the suttas vinnana is the basic function of awareness, ie sense-consciousness.
If you wish to personally disagree with the suttas, you are free to. The suttas were plainly quoted.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:26 am
Actually this supports what I'm saying. Citta can be defiled by the taints, which means it can take on various qualities, or be in different states. See the third frame of the Satipatthana Sutta.
I have not disagreed with the above. However, once the citta is defiled, consciousness will also be defiled. This is why the suttas, as quoted many times, refer to consciousness & contact defiled with ignorance.

In conclusion to my point of view, since D.O. refers to the arising (samudaya) of consciousness with ignorance as a condition; "nirodha" would appear to refer to the opposite, namely, the non-arising or cessation of consciousness with ignorance as a condition. In other words, "nirodha" would not refer to the cessation of a consciousness that is not defiled by ignorance. For example, when an undefiled Arahant sleeps at night, this is not "nirodha" of the Arahant's consciousness. Regards :mrgreen:

justindesilva
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:15 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:21 am
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:14 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:30 am
Returning to the OP, is there a problem with translating nirodha as "cessation" or "no further arising"? It does appear to be what the suttas describe.
That is why I proposed the word ' disentangle' in place of nirodha.
But as I explained previously, "disentangle" doesn't make sense when you look at what the suttas actually describe.

I don't see a problem with "cessation" or "no further arising", so I was asking why some seem to find it unsatisfactory.
These translations do not at times give the correct translation , and to my mind niridha should be translated
to give a better interpretation. I also have come across the word ' free from ' as a translation to nirodha.
Free the mind from loba, dosa, will give a better interpretation .

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:14 am

justindesilva wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:15 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:21 am
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:14 pm


That is why I proposed the word ' disentangle' in place of nirodha.
But as I explained previously, "disentangle" doesn't make sense when you look at what the suttas actually describe.

I don't see a problem with "cessation" or "no further arising", so I was asking why some seem to find it unsatisfactory.
These translations do not at times give the correct translation , and to my mind niridha should be translated
to give a better interpretation. I also have come across the word ' free from ' as a translation to nirodha.
Free the mind from loba, dosa, will give a better interpretation .
Sure, cessation would imply "free from", but I still understand don't understand what is wrong with "cessation".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:42 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:26 am
The "vi" prefix in vinnana means discriminative, or dual.
Its irrelevant because the suttas don't appear to provide this meaning. I already said what a word means in Sanskrit may not apply to Buddhism.
But the suttas clearly do provide this meaning. For example eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon the duality of eye and form.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:42 am
I have already explained to you many times before. Since you have no interest, it is against Dhamma principles to explain to you again.
:shrug: Please don't patronise, it is horribly reminiscent of your old "Element" persona.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:42 am
If you wish to personally disagree with the suttas, you are free to.
:shrug: Obviously I am disagreeing with your interpretation of the suttas.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:42 am
In conclusion to my point of view, since D.O. refers to the arising (samudaya) of consciousness with ignorance as a condition; "nirodha" would appear to refer to the opposite, namely, the non-arising or cessation of consciousness with ignorance as a condition. In other words, "nirodha" would not refer to the cessation of a consciousness that is not defiled by ignorance. For example, when an undefiled Arahant sleeps at night, this is not "nirodha" of the Arahant's consciousness. Regards :mrgreen:
The suttas on DO simply don't support your idea of "non-ignorant consciousness" continuing. The suttas on DO in reverse mode clearly describe one nidana ceasing in dependence upon the previous nidana. The logical conclusion of your position is that the other nidanas would also continue in "non-ignorant" mode - but of course that wouldn't make sense beyond vedana, you can't have a "non-ignorant" version of tanha!

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:37 am

the cessation of consciousness.

to argue there will come a day of no tomorrow, is absurd

though today will cease

justindesilva
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:30 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:37 am
the cessation of consciousness.

to argue there will come a day of no tomorrow, is absurd

though today will cease
Consciousness ( nama ) can not cease. Consciouness is the universal energy.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:58 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
But the suttas clearly do provide this meaning. For example eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon the duality of eye and form.
Ajahn Sujato disagrees with you, here; and appears to have said the same as I posted to you.
The etymology of viññāṇa is invoked to justify this conclusion. ‘Vi’, so the story goes, means ‘separation’, and ‘ñāṇa’ means ‘knowing’, so viññāṇa means ‘separative knowing’ (as opposed to the universal cosmic consciousness of Nibbana.)

But you cannot derive the meaning of a word by adding up a root with a prefix. Words derive meaning from context. This is especially true in the case of words in abstract philosophical use.

Ajahn Sujato
:roll:
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
Please don't patronise
I am not patronising but speaking the truth.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
Obviously I am disagreeing with your interpretation of the suttas.
You might be disagreeing but, imo, you are not engaged in any type of objective examination/consideration of the texts because you are ignoring certain suttas and not justifying your disagreement with suttas. You certainly appear to be disagreeing with the suttas rather than disagreeing with my interpretation.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
The suttas on DO simply don't support your idea of "non-ignorant consciousness" continuing.
Best to end the discussion now because there are many suttas I have posted many times that support the above. The sutta excerpt you posted is merely a translation which you yourself interpret. Based on a complete examination of all suttas on the topic, there is a strong case (which I have made) that the cessation of ignorance leads to the cessation of ignorant-consciousness rather than all consciousness. :)

James Tan
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:58 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
But the suttas clearly do provide this meaning. For example eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon the duality of eye and form.
Ajahn Sujato disagrees with you, here; and appears to have said the same as I posted to you.
The etymology of viññāṇa is invoked to justify this conclusion. ‘Vi’, so the story goes, means ‘separation’, and ‘ñāṇa’ means ‘knowing’, so viññāṇa means ‘separative knowing’ (as opposed to the universal cosmic consciousness of Nibbana.)

But you cannot derive the meaning of a word by adding up a root with a prefix. Words derive meaning from context. This is especially true in the case of words in abstract philosophical use.

Ajahn Sujato
:roll:
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
Please don't patronise
I am not patronising but speaking the truth.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
Obviously I am disagreeing with your interpretation of the suttas.
You might be disagreeing but, imo, you are not engaged in any type of objective examination/consideration of the texts because you are ignoring certain suttas and not justifying your disagreement with suttas. You certainly appear to be disagreeing with the suttas rather than disagreeing with my interpretation.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
The suttas on DO simply don't support your idea of "non-ignorant consciousness" continuing.
Best to end the discussion now because there are many suttas I have posted many times that support the above. The sutta excerpt you posted is merely a translation which you yourself interpret. Based on a complete examination of all suttas on the topic, there is a strong case (which I have made) that the cessation of ignorance leads to the cessation of ignorant-consciousness rather than all consciousness. :)
Hi doodoot ,

What do you mean by ignorant consciousness ?
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:58 am
Ajahn Sujato disagrees with you, here;
Ironic that you should quote Ajahn Sujato, given you were recently slagging off his translations on another forum.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:58 am
You might be disagreeing but, imo, you are not engaged in any type of objective examination/consideration of the texts because you are ignoring certain suttas and not justifying your disagreement with suttas.
This is pure projection on your part.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:58 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 am
Please don't patronise
I am not patronising but speaking the truth.
Please note that these are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to speak the truth (or what one sincerely believes to be the truth) in a patronising manner. It would be better if members could desist from this.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am
Ironic that you should quote Ajahn Sujato, given you were recently slagging off his translations on another forum.
My impression is you respect Sujato's views. That is the essential matter.
James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:01 am
What do you mean by ignorant consciousness ?
As posted from SN 22.81 - consciousness polluted by ignorance; similar to a clear window polluted by dust or dirt.
To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Thanissaro)

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:57 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am
Ironic that you should quote Ajahn Sujato, given you were recently slagging off his translations on another forum.
My impression is you respect Sujato's views. That is the essential matter.
My impression is that you don't respect Sujato's views, and yet you quote him when it suits you. :shrug:
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am
James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:01 am
What do you mean by ignorant consciousness ?
As posted from SN 22.81 - consciousness polluted by ignorance; similar to a clear window polluted by dust or dirt.
To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Thanissaro)
Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā
This is not referring to your "ignorant consciousness". "Touched by that is felt born of contact with ignorance" describes the response when the uninstructed person is contacted by a feeling which is interpreted with ignorance.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:57 am
This is not referring to your "ignorant consciousness". "Touched by that is felt born of contact with ignorance" describes the response when the uninstructed person is contacted by a feeling which is interpreted with ignorance.
Makes no difference. Like a window covered with dust; the consciousness is polluted by ignorance. Anyway, back to topic: :focus:

Even though you appear to deliberately intentionally choose to ignore/deny suttas such as MN 38 and MN 148 that appear to explicit say "nirodha" occurs when "the eye sees the form and consciousness arises"; how do you ignore/deny/refute the following from the Anapanasati Sutta that says mindfulness, investigation of dhamma, concentration & other factors of enlightenment dependent upon "nirodha"? :shrug:
It’s when a mendicant develops the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ. Dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … pe … vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … pītisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … passaddhisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … samādhisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … upekkhāsambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato

nissita = by means of
:popcorn:

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:30 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:57 am
My impression is that you don't respect Sujato's views, and yet you quote him when it suits you.
:offtopic: :focus:

In my negligence, I forgot the following. If "nirodha" is the literal cessation or disappearance of consciousness & the sense bases, how is stage 15 ("observing cessation :shock:") of Anapanasati practised; which results in stage 16? :shrug:
They practice breathing in observing cessation :shock: . They practice breathing out observing cessation.

nirodhānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘nirodhānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

They practice breathing in observing letting go. They practice breathing out observing letting go.

‘paṭinissaggānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘paṭinissaggānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.

Whenever a mendicant practices breathing while observing... cessation :shock:

‘nirodhānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘nirodhānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

or observing letting go—

‘paṭinissaggānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘paṭinissaggānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

at that time they meditate observing an aspect of principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.

dhammesu dhammānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
Having seen with wisdom the giving up of desire and aversion, they watch over closely with equanimity.

So yaṃ taṃ abhijjhādomanassānaṃ pahānaṃ taṃ paññāya disvā sādhukaṃ ajjhupekkhitā hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:30 am
dhammesu dhammānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
Having seen with wisdom the giving up of desire and aversion, they watch over closely with equanimity.
Yes, cessation of desire and aversion. There is no mention of "ignorant consciousness" ceasing in your quotes.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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