Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

[User1249x]

...
Since that book is a collection of sutta passages, you might find it helpful. That chapter, in fact, discusses such suttas as:
...

I am just not at all a fan of Ven. Amaro and i am by default reserved against TFT and stuff coming out Amaravati.

[Polar Bear]

Here a quote from another member of the forum pertaining to this;

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32327&start=90#p480455
If we are to take that interpretation that "nibbana" is a field of reality beyond "mentality" and "materiality", one can still assume, that, yes, there is no experience, feelings, perceptions, cognition, etc (that is, all which is known to us at the moment), but, there is "something else entirely".

i don't like to endorse other people's interpretations in it's entirety but i approve mostly of those answers he gave and i think he is quite wise to that extent.

You seem to have missed the point Zom was making. One sentence later in that same post he speaks of the idea you quoted like this:

But this borders with papanca, that is, "self-ideas". Because still one assumes that this will be precisely you who have this "transcendent indescribable experience", which personally I see as a backdoor to samsara (I mean, this very view is this backdoor). All kinds of "transcendency ideas" border with such view, and border with clinging, as Buddha says in MN 60 - and so a wise man choosing between two, should choose first view of "just stopping" or "simple cessation", because such view does not border with clinging. And again for this reason Buddha makes curtsey to annihilationist views elsewhere in the texts, with a remark, that they are still wrong views because of self-ideas coming along.

But this is a digression, Zom is only an authority insofar as he backs up statements from the suttas. And it seems to be the case that different suttas can be used to come up with all sorts of ideas about nibbana. I stick to a parsimonious interpretation because I think it is compatible with all other interpretations in the sense that whatever else nibbana is, it is the destruction of craving and complete non-attachment, and if nibbana is only such and not also a special kind of consciousness, or defilement destroying unconditioned realm, or non-experience, then I won’t be subject to the problem of conceiving nibbana to be otherwise than it is. Plus it’s more immediately obvious that things like passion, aversion, and delusion can be absent.

What do you think, Sīvaka? When there’s greed in you, do you understand ‘I have greed in me’? And when there’s no greed in you, do you understand ‘I have no greed in me’?” “Yes, sir.” “Since you know this, this is how the teaching is realizable in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.
What do you think, Sīvaka? When there’s hate … delusion … greedy thoughts … hateful thoughts … When there are delusional thoughts in you, do you understand ‘I have delusional thoughts in me’? And when there are no delusional thoughts in you, do you understand ‘I have no delusional thoughts in me’?” “Yes, sir.” “Since you know this, this is how the teaching is realizable in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.”
“Excellent, sir! Excellent! From this day forth, may the Buddha remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

https://suttacentral.net/an6.47/en/sujato

The Buddha said this: “There is a method—apart from faith, personal preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration—that a mendicant can rely on to declare their enlightenment. That is: ‘I understand: “Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.”’

And what is that method? Take a mendicant who sees a sight with the eye. When they have greed, hate, and delusion in them, they understand ‘I have greed, hate, and delusion in me.’ When they don’t have greed, hate, and delusion in them, they understand ‘I don’t have greed, hate, and delusion in me.’ Since this is so, are these things understood by faith, personal preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration?” “No, sir.” “Aren’t they understood by seeing them with wisdom?” “Yes, sir.”

“This is a method—apart from faith, personal preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration—that a mendicant can rely on to declare their enlightenment. That is: ‘I understand: “Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.”’

Furthermore, a mendicant hears a sound … smells an odor … tastes a flavor … feels a touch …
knows a thought with the mind. When they have greed, hate, and delusion in them, they understand ‘I have greed, hate, and delusion in me.’ When they don’t have greed, hate, and delusion in them, they understand ‘I don’t have greed, hate, and delusion in me.’ Since this is so, are these things understood by faith, personal preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration?” “No, sir.” “Aren’t they understood by seeing them with wisdom?” “Yes, sir.” “This too is a method—apart from faith, personal preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration—that a mendicant can rely on to declare their enlightenment. That is: ‘I understand: “Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.”’”

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.153/en/sujato

Mendicants, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path that leads to the unconditioned. Listen … And what is the unconditioned? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the unconditioned.

“Mendicants, I will teach you the undefiled …
the truth …
the far shore …
the subtle …
the very hard to see …
the unaging …
the constant …
the not falling apart …
the invisible …
the unproliferated …
the peaceful …
the deathless …
the sublime …
the blissful …
the sanctuary …
the end of craving …
the incredible …
the amazing …
the untroubled …
the not liable to trouble …
extinguishment …
the unafflicted …
dispassion …
purity …
freedom …
not clinging …
the island …
the protection …
the shelter …
the refuge …

“Mendicants, I will teach you the haven and the path that leads to the haven. Listen … And what is the haven? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the haven.

https://suttacentral.net/sn43.14-43/en/sujato

I just find this kind of focus so much more refreshing than metaphysical debates about nibbana or arguing about what kind of experience or non-experience constitutes nibbana.

It’s obvious that the absence of greed, hate, and delusion is something to be known by the mind. So in this sense, nibbana is an object of the mind.

[User1249x]

Here a quote from another member of the forum pertaining to this;

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32327&start=90#p480455
If we are to take that interpretation that "nibbana" is a field of reality beyond "mentality" and "materiality", one can still assume, that, yes, there is no experience, feelings, perceptions, cognition, etc (that is, all which is known to us at the moment), but, there is "something else entirely".

i don't like to endorse other people's interpretations in it's entirety but i approve mostly of those answers he gave and i think he is quite wise to that extent.

You seem to have missed the point Zom was making. One sentence later in that same post he speaks of the idea you quoted like this:

But this borders with papanca, that is, "self-ideas". Because still one assumes that this will be precisely you who have this "transcendent indescribable experience", which personally I see as a backdoor to samsara (I mean, this very view is this backdoor). All kinds of "transcendency ideas" border with such view, and border with clinging, as Buddha says in MN 60 - and so a wise man choosing between two, should choose first view of "just stopping" or "simple cessation", because such view does not border with clinging. And again for this reason Buddha makes curtsey to annihilationist views elsewhere in the texts, with a remark, that they are still wrong views because of self-ideas coming along.

But this is a digression, Zom is only an authority insofar as he backs up statements from the suttas. And it seems to be the case that different suttas can be used to come up with all sorts of ideas about nibbana. I stick to a parsimonious interpretation because I think it is compatible with all other interpretations in the sense that whatever else nibbana is, it is the destruction of craving and complete non-attachment, and if nibbana is only such and not also a special kind of consciousness, or defilement destroying unconditioned realm, or non-experience, then I won’t be subject to the problem of conceiving nibbana to be otherwise than it is. Plus it’s more immediately obvious that things like passion, aversion, and delusion can be absent.

He says that it is easily misunderstood yes. What is that i supposedly missed? I did not cite him as authority, i just think he answered most of those questions well.

I just find this kind of focus so much more refreshing than metaphysical debates about nibbana or arguing about what kind of experience or non-experience constitutes nibbana.

Who's debating:) What is important is that one at least has faith in sense-bases being impermanent and if possible conditions disenhantment and attains path. However if one thinks that the thing known as consciousness, intellect or mind is not impermanent, that is really bad;

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

[mikenz66]

...
Since that book is a collection of sutta passages, you might find it helpful. That chapter, in fact, discusses such suttas as:
...

I am just not at all a fan of Ven. Amaro and i am by default reserved against TFT and stuff coming out Amaravati.

Actually, it was written by the two authors, Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro, when they were co-abbots of Abhayagiri, in California.

It does contain a useful collection of suttas relating to Nibbana. And I think that it is worth considering a variety of informed views.


Mike

[User1249x]

...
Since that book is a collection of sutta passages, you might find it helpful. That chapter, in fact, discusses such suttas as:
...

I am just not at all a fan of Ven. Amaro and i am by default reserved against TFT and stuff coming out Amaravati.

Actually, it was written by the two authors, Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro, when they were co-abbots of Abhayagiri, in California.

It does contain a useful collection of suttas relating to Nibbana. And I think that it is worth considering a variety of informed views.


Mike

If you say so i will check it out

[Polar Bear]

He says that it is easily misunderstood yes. What is that i supposedly missed? I did not cite him as authority, i just think he answered most of those questions well.

I might be confused about what point you wanted to make. It sounded like you were positing some unconditioned thingy to become one with by letting go of change.

What is important is that one at least has faith in sense-bases being impermanent and if possible conditions disenhantment and attains path. However if one thinks that the thing known as consciousness, intellect or mind is not impermanent, that is really bad;

Yes yes, the impermanence of the mind/consciousness is important, no argument from me there.

[User1249x]

He says that it is easily misunderstood yes. What is that i supposedly missed? I did not cite him as authority, i just think he answered most of those questions well.

I might be confused about what point you wanted to make. It sounded like you were positing some unconditioned thingy to become one with by letting go of change.

nah not become one, when world disappears it does not become one with anything it merely disappears. Also not letting go of change but becoming disenchanted with all created things.

[bodom]

Here is an interesting thread on this topic at Sutta Central:

A consciousness outside the bundles
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... ndles/3150

[salayatananirodha]

Hi [name redacted by admin],

Its possible that having a look at chapter 7 "Attending to the Deathless" in the book "The Island - An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbanna" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro might be helpful.

https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/451-the-island

With kind regards,

Aloka

i prefer using The Tipitaka

This work references the tipitaka...

[User1249x]

Hi [name redacted by admin],

Its possible that having a look at chapter 7 "Attending to the Deathless" in the book "The Island - An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbanna" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro might be helpful.

https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/451-the-island

With kind regards,

Aloka

i prefer using The Tipitaka

This work references the tipitaka...

Well let's see what we can learn about their views from that book.

[Spiny Norman]

Split from viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32419

Nibbana was known by the mind of the Buddha. It is not a concept and can only be known via the mind sense base.

How else can Nibbana be experienced, if not via one of the six sense bases?

I don't think Nibbana is an object of mano ( mind-base ), but rather the supreme state of citta ( heart/mind ) - see the third frame of the Satipatthana Sutta.

"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness without lust, as without lust;... the consciousness without hate, as without hate;... the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ...the state of consciousness become great, as the state become great;... the state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to it, as the state with nothing mentally higher; the quieted state of consciousness, as the quieted state;... the freed state of consciousness as freed;..."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .soma.html

[User1249x]

Find me a passage saying Nibbana is experinced at mind base.

In the exposition of the āyatanas in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka's Vibhaṅga the unconditioned element is included in dhammāyatana:

Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaappaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

Therein what is the ideational-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational base; and the unconditioned element.

What then could cognize it if not manāyatana? To propose another āyatana would be to make Nibbāna into a visible object, sound, taste, odour or tangible. To propose an agent of cognition outside the āyatanas would be to posit another "all".

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/vb2

I have thought more about your post Ven. Dhammanando

Let me clarify that when i say "Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT" what is meant meant by Nibbana is the definition from the definition from Ud.8.1;

that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.

Which "is" when Contact is not.

Therefore there is also no mind base to speak about post cessation of contact, no suffering to speak of post cessation of suffering in other words.

In that sense Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not experienced [at mind-sense base] because mind-sense base is associated with contact [namarupa] whereas Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not associated with contact [namarupa]

Therein what is mind sense-base? Mind sense-base by way of singlefold division: Is associated with contact.

As you have pointed out there is a way to talk about Nibbana as destruction of delusion for a being or as the absence of delusion in the here and now for an Arahant, however i don't really go there as it was not my objective here.

I do understand that proposing that
1. Nibbana[Cessation/Extinguishing] occurs outside of the world[senses]
2. Nibbana[Destruction of Delusion] is experienced outside of the World[senses]

would be to postulate something occurring outside of all, it took me a while to realize that it was probably what you meant Ven. Sir.

[Zom]

Which "is" when Contact is not.

Therefore there is also no mind base to speak about post cessation of contact, no suffering to speak of post cessation of suffering in other words.

In that sense Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not experienced [at mind-sense base] because mind-sense base is associated with contact [namarupa] whereas Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not associated with contact [namarupa]

Seems like this is the description of nirodha-samapatti (cessation of feeling and perception) attainment. It is called "ayatana" in some MN suttas as far as I remember. Especially so, when it is not mentioned while "neither perception nor non-perception" is.

[User1249x]

Which "is" when Contact is not.

Therefore there is also no mind base to speak about post cessation of contact, no suffering to speak of post cessation of suffering in other words.

In that sense Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not experienced [at mind-sense base] because mind-sense base is associated with contact [namarupa] whereas Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not associated with contact [namarupa]

Seems like this is the description of nirodha-samapatti (cessation of feeling and perception) attainment. It is called "ayatana" in some MN suttas as far as I remember. Especially so, when it is not mentioned while "neither perception nor non-perception" is.

It is Nibbana sutta but yes cessation of perception and feeling is technically nibbana [cessation of contact etc]. Such cessation is also realized by attainment of the lokuttara citta state with eightfold path factors, realization of deathless. The difference is in how it is brought about etc, ie first time it occurs realizes four noble truths whereas the consecutive realization of cessation and emerging does not (because they have already been realized so a person does not become ariyan because he is one already), so functional differences as well as how it is brought about. Remainderless extinguishing/cessation occurs and is called parinibbana because there is no emergence post cessation in that case.

[Volo]

In that sense Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not experienced [at mind-sense base] because mind-sense base is associated with contact [namarupa] whereas Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not associated with contact [namarupa]
Therein what is mind sense-base? Mind sense-base by way of singlefold division: Is associated with contact.

In Nibbāna there is no nāma-rūpa, but in the mind, which perceives it, there is nāma-rūpa. E.g.: there are no trees in the ocean, but while looking at it you might be sitting on the branch of a tree.