Atman

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:35 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:10 pm
To be fair, I can never do as good a job as you are doing to show the one doctrine...
I read your posts with clarity & patience but you appear to not read my posts. What I post is unrelated to myself. I post (cut & paste ;) ) from the Pali suttas. The Buddha asserts one doctrine for his Noble Disciples but also taught other doctrines for worldlings (puthujjana). I advised you of this from the very beginning. Don't recognise this; don't know Buddha. Good night from here, friend Mark. :mrgreen:
And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:04 pm

There is difference Doodoo between clarity ad patience and filtering everything into a argument.

Enough, when i want to speak to you I will quote you

Patience and clarity.

But I think you did a great Job to show just what Buddhism isnt.

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:55 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahajanapadas

The Mahājanapadas (Sanskrit: महाजनपद, lit. 'great realm', from maha, "great", and janapada "foothold of a tribe, country") were sixteen kingdoms or oligarchic republics that existed in ancient India from the sixth to fourth centuries BCE. Two of them were most probably ganatantras (republics) and others had forms of monarchy. Ancient Buddhist texts like the Anguttara Nikaya[1] make frequent reference to sixteen great kingdoms and republics which had evolved and flourished in a belt stretching from Gandhara in the northwest to Anga in the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent and included parts of the trans-Vindhyan region,[2] prior to the rise of Buddhism in India.[3]

The 6th–5th century BCE is often regarded as a major turning point in early Indian history; it saw the emergence of India's first large cities after the demise of the Indus Valley Civilization, as well as the rise of sramana movements (including Buddhism and Jainism) which challenged the religious orthodoxy of the Vedic Period.
Archaeologically, this period corresponds in part to the Northern Black Polished Ware culture.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period

The end of the Vedic period witnessed the rise of Mahajanapada (large, urbanised states) as well as śramaṇa movements (including Jainism and Buddhism) which challenged the Vedic orthodoxy of the Kuru Kingdom.[4]

The Vedic society was patriarchal and patrilineal, and early Vedic Aryans were organised into tribes rather than kingdoms. Economy in the Vedic period was sustained by a combination of pastoralism and agriculture. Vedic religion developed into Brahmanical orthodoxy, and around the beginning of the Common Era, the Vedic tradition formed one of the main constituents of the so-called "Hindu synthesis".[5]
---
any comments?

also supposedly Krishna had 14 000 wives so must have lots of children, probability that we all have some Krishna in ourselves.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:26 pm

Namaste Auto

The problem with linear history accounts is that they can be manipulated and changed, I think most people accept that the victors or invaders always change the history facts to suit their agenda, so sometimes we have to be careful and maybe look into multiple accounts, but that may cause even more confusion, the Aryan Invasion theory has already been debunked many times, for it to be universally accepted maybe another thing.

Many of the ancient texts are very difficult to translate, there are very few that can translate the vedik texts of the 4 main vedas because the language in todays world will be a bit abstract and ambiguous and almost impossible to translate, Mahasiddha Sri Aurobindo goes into this in greater detail.

The Vedik culture is still alive and being practiced today, it maybe damaged in parts but not totally and it is still evident in India and in east Asian cultures, there are lots of examples in Thailand and all overeast Asia, Bali is strongly influenced by vedik culture and is a living tradition, in India it maybe more stronger in the South which had less foreign invasion, and is still alive in the oral traditions and is back on the rise, its just a matter of adjustment into new materialistic paradigm.

Personally I would not rely on wikipedia, there are so many inaccurate facts, just browse around if possible see how the locals and natives speak and try to understand, they still have strong gotras or family lines linked with the rishis. I use wiki for somethings but never take everything they say as final.


Sri krsna had approximately 16,000 wives, this is part of his dwarka lila. There are a number of ways to understand this in more esoteric terms. 16000 plus wives are rishi's, as said in the previous entry are experiencing seeing Brahman through Anubhava pratyaksha, which is the closest one can get to as a via medium of that which can never be fully described and what they see and experience is Prem~pure Love, so in this way they are married to the Absolute Sri Krsna, one meaning of krsna is all attractive. so we dont need to take this literally that he had so many wives and produced progeny. There are also some other ways to see this, how the brahma vrittis come together in union in higher states of samadhi, or union with the Absolute. The rishis by choice sometimes bind themselves in lokas to experience the bliss of being liberated.

One thing to consider is that some of the ancient kingdoms would have been made totally from organic materials, so many of them may have been decayed by time, which doesn't mean they didnt exist before and in general dead bodies we almost always burned, this whole thing about graveyards is foreign to Asia in ancient times. How much real knowledge and information is kept from us is not known, if something comes up to alter the generally accepted history it may get branded as pseudo science or just an anomaly. For these reason linear times were never really considered that important as environments are always under going perpetual change, so the vedik way is to seek that which is beyond change. Also something to consider is that when ancient kingdoms are spoken of in the texts it will have more esoteric meaning, so lets not confine it to just the exoteric,these are not literal literature's, something far more interesting and fulfilling is going on.

What is the Kuru Dynastery, disregarding for the time being the linear facts which are uncertain kuru means the Body of dharma, us a human being. If we understood our existence with the right awareness aligning the dharmas this body is the perfect vehicle to awaken its true potential.

dhrtarastra uvaca
dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre
samaveta yuyutsavah
mamakah pandavas caiva
kim akurvata sanjaya

It may take me to long to bring this is to the right context, and perhaps for those interested its best to learn directly from a someone who is expert in the Bhagavad Gita, the first few slokas are extremely important to understand the rest of the Bhagavad Gita and the wider meaning of Mahabharata and how it relates to our life and the story of mankind, its not trapped or limited to historical time lines.

dhrtarastra represents material blindness or lack of spiritual insights, his hundreds sons are the worldly desires which blind him and dictate to him his wordily concerns and decisions, his chariot driver sanjaya who transferred to him gita is in perfect equanimity and he was given dharmachakshu or or divine eye to translate to the blind king dhrtarastra. Krsna addresses Arjuna as Gudakesha which means awakened from deep sleep or has conquered sleep, its another way to describe the wisdom state, sleep has meaning of being in mind and senses consciousness, he has awoken into prajna state. Arjuna represents the jiva or atomic individual who seeks to know truth. Bhagavad Gita is a journey inwards known through equanimity. There is another Gita spoken to Arjuna in Dwarka called Anu Gita, this is pure higher advaitic text, Krnsa also spoke another Gita to Uddhava. many Gitas in Sanatana Dharma. The five pandava brothers are the 5 senses which are in union with different devatas.

It maybe interesting that the vedik texts also reject themselves, so its nothing new to hear that that shramanas ( ascetic seekers) Jain or Buddhist rejected the outward going vedas and also the inward going vedas, veda is known via apara vidya~ lesser Knowledge and para vidya Supreme Knowledge, the vedas are considered as apara vidya because nirguna brahman can not be known other than by Self realization, its easy to manipulate this through literal translations, but changes nothing. Buddha taught at some point to the right people at the right in the right type of lokas~states, the difference of purva mimamsa and uttara mimamsa, the vedas support this, so its nothing really new, only that literal translations are simple misrepresenting.

For your reflection

:namaste:

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Yo Markandeya

esoteric is wide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_dynasty
According to Hindu mythology, the Lunar dynasty is one of the four principal houses of the Kshatriya varna, or warrior–ruling caste.This legendary dynasty was descended from the moon (Soma or Chandra), ,[1]

According to the Mahabharata, the dynasty's progenitor Ila ruled from Prayag, while his son Shashabindu ruled in the country of Bahli.[2]
The great sage Vishvamitra the son of king Gadhi of Kanyakubja dynasty was a descendant of Amavasu, the son of Pururava of Chandravansha clan.[3]
Ila's descendants, the Ailas (also known as Chandravansha), were a dynasty of kings of ancient India. Pururavas, the son of Budha was the founder of this dynasty. .[4]
Why not can't dynasty descend from a moon? literally telling there were humans on the moon who come down to earth.

If you live like 1000 years, its fairly possible that a female can have 100 sons, or a man thousands of wives. And yes wives could mean nadis in a body and primary channels or meridians are moon and sun. It could mean both literal and esoteric.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Namaste Auto,

Everything is descending one way or another from the sun and moon, and each will have their own lineages, although they are never in conflict and always life long friends such as Venerable Sāriputta and MahaMoggallāna , its far to complex to trace all of them out and not one person will posses knowledge of the lineages, or maybe only a Buddha, its a bit like trying to count all the streams in the world. This will not just be limited to India or the ancient map of Bharata Varsha.

Without writing anything off its unlikely that the human race descends from the planet moon, that maybe taking it to literally....

Sun surya represents light~ joyti Illumnation and moon represents sound~ shabda, everything in creation is manifestation and mixing of sound and light in one way or another, these are powers of brahman according to vedic texts, and their expansions are unlimited. Sun represents the dharma vehicles of illumination and organised knowledge, Sāriputta was the dharma vessel of the organised dharma teachings which bring illumination joyti , there was none to match him in terms of knowing the dharma teachings second to Buddha, maybe only Mahākassapa aka kasyapa Muni, one of the saptarishis, he is kinda of in a league of his own none can excel him except obviously Buddha. As far as I understand Sāriputta was the founder of the monastic traditions and learning through the suttas. veda is combination of sound and light, shabda and joyti, sun and moon, surya deva and chandra deva.

Moon is more lucid and not so technical, MahaMoggallāna was more of a mystic, he was teaching through mind sciences and siddhis, a lot of his lineages are still held within yogic traditions of the Himalayas such as nath sampradayas of Goraknath and many others stull living today, Guru Goraknath was a disciple of Matsyendranath. There is no start or end of Nath sampradaya and they transcend time and space, kala and akash.



Sun and moon also have functions in the brain, left side is the empirical function and right side is the creative function. Some people maybe more left or right sided and need different ways to learn, so each of the lineages coming from sun and moon will have pure ways in their own rights.

There are a lot of interesting things even if learned technically about these things. The sapta rishis 7 seers and how they are connected to the 7 ancient universities of India, Nalanda was just one of them and how they are related to all phenomenon and the transcedent.

For sure there is a direct link between the esoteric and exoteric, although all creative manifested phenomenon that we experience will have subtle cause which then manifest as final result in the outer experience and larger universe, but its all aligned, we may not be aware of due our minds not being refined and enlightened enough.
Some people often ask why the Theravada tradition lacks in esoteric Knowledge, it doesn't , its all in their but a bit more hidden, vac comes in 4 levels.

In the upper dharmas ar higher dharmas things become more unified, the saints and rishis, buddhas and bodhisattvas are not fighting, even in the subtle realms they maybe some flux or duality, but it less or more refined and only serves to promote direct insight into Truth.

So much to rediscover. There is a very mystical language and communication going in the suttas, personally I only have a few basic simple texts that I have for daily study and reflection and practice, in the pali suttas the one I know and stick to the most is kevatta sutta. If one suttas is understood, they are all understood, quality over quantity.

Purniman full moon observances are followed very closely in Theravada because of the direct effect on the mind in meditation, if one is observant then the mind certainly goes into different mode around the moon time, moon is very auspicious.

Its all connected, were dealing with vast lineages over thousand and thousands of years that are deeply connected, it transcends any dogma or litery study, our duty as individuals is just to cultivate the mind and serve society and others to our best capacity. Dharma cultivation without seva or service will slow down the ripening process and its advised find some wise association.

This is just a quick response answer and I will be off for a few days and maybe some other things can be explored in more details and I would welcome any other insights in line with dharma connections to other paths.

Just for reflection and to promote more study how ever one does that into sound and light.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:20 am

markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:04 pm
But I think you did a great Job to show just what Buddhism isnt.
Buddhism can only be what is written in the Pali suttas; just as Christianity can only be what is written in the New Testament.


markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am

Thanks again doodoot for showing that you can only think in black and white the 2 system binary logic as per video.

He says some interesting things but also misses out quite a lot, he gets Neo Advaita spot on, but seems a bit self absorbed into his own understanding as something special.

There are older Sanskrit Buddhist texts, quite a few important Chinese ones also.

Back to your one doctrine dogma Pali text quotes.

With Metta

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:19 am

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am
Back to your one doctrine dogma Pali text quotes.
Buddha-Dhamma appears to be one doctrine. :heart:

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:07 am

Not much time doodoo


The wise knowthat the 4th, Turiya, Pure conciousness, is not that which is conscious of the internal subjective world, nor that which is conscious of the external objective world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a compact mass of knowledge, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is insentient. It is unseen, unrelated, incomprehensible, undefinable, unthinkable, indescribable, the sole essence of the consciousness of the Self with no trace of the conditioned world, the peaceful, all bliss, non dual. This is the Atman, the Self. It shines with the purity of a thousand of infinite suns heard through divine sound.

shabda and joyti reflects tat through the 33,000 million devatas, its bit outside your limited comprehension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJQn9rS ... KJ8bXnBzCs

You wont find anything in books, just words in paper or a screen. I guess you can go on all day.

All the best and unless you can make any connections with Dharma paths your just trolling and seeking fulfillment with your own tiny mind.

i am not sure why the admins allow you to troll and disrupt threads on dharma path connections.

http://www.bodhisvara.com/

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:22 am

esoteric or literal?

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN123.html
“…‘Whereas other women give birth after nurturing the fetus in the womb between nine and ten lunar months, that’s not how the bodhisatta’s mother gave birth to the bodhisatta. After nurturing the bodhisatta in her womb exactly ten lunar months, the bodhisatta’s mother gave birth.’ …
“…‘Whereas other women give birth while sitting or lying down, that’s not how the bodhisatta’s mother gave birth to the bodhisatta. The bodhisatta’s mother gave birth to the bodhisatta while standing.’ …

“…‘When the bodhisatta left his mother’s womb, devas received him first, and then human beings.’ …
“…‘When the bodhisatta left his mother’s womb but before he reached the ground, four male devas received him and set him in front of his mother, (saying,) “Be gratified, O queen. A son of great influence has been born to you.”’ …

“…‘When the bodhisatta left his mother’s womb, he left it immaculate, unsullied by fluid, unsullied by mucus, unsullied by blood, unsullied by lymph: pure, very pure. Just as a when a gemstone is placed on Kāsi cloth, neither would the gemstone sully the cloth, nor the cloth the gemstone. Why is that? Because of the purity of both. In the same way, when the bodhisatta left his mother’s womb he left it immaculate, unsullied by fluid, unsullied by mucus, unsullied by blood, unsullied by lymph: pure, very pure.’ …
people read Suttas and take what they want and if it is not suitable then it is esoteric meaning or allegory.
“…‘When the bodhisatta left his mother’s womb, two streams of water appeared from the sky—one cool, the other warm—to wash the bodhisatta and his mother.’ …
“…‘As soon as the bodhisatta was born, he stood steadily with his feet on the ground and, facing north, took seven steps while a white parasol was held over him. Surveying all the directions, he made a bellowing statement: “I am the foremost of the world. I am chief of the world. I am the best of the world.”’ …
if to think allegorically then you may as well think whatever you like without making touch with reality for the rest of the life.

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:50 am

markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:14 pm
Namaste Auto,
Its all connected, were dealing with vast lineages over thousand and thousands of years that are deeply connected, it transcends any dogma or litery study, our duty as individuals is just to cultivate the mind and serve society and others to our best capacity. Dharma cultivation without seva or service will slow down the ripening process and its advised find some wise association.

:anjali:
I used internet search engine to search what i could do with my mind and body and i got into information inside books(have no idea about their existence, random) what i don't have to buy but can read a page or two because of the search words i typed.

There i got focus and also started open up. Tip is person has some things opened up but mundane life doesn't point to work with these aspects, you got to need teacher or words what points you things out where you do them and can cause result and can back check or make a control that it is real and works.
Even supernatural beings, guardians can't direct you, because of not reading the signs and hints but take things mundane way or think these supposed to be like that.
Also make a wish, that you want something, its similar to internet search engine.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:06 pm

Namste Auto

Its hard to answer your question as I dont rely on google to learn Dharma, people have different ways to learn. To take anything as over literal can lead to problems. Many things are coming from another language/culure and a different time in history so a lot may seem very abstract. I guess I am lucky to have lived within these traditions and learned through that way, so its easier for me to see the direct meaning in what maybe considered as abstract, but each of our experiences and learning tools are different.



:anjali:

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:06 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:06 pm
Namste Auto

Its hard to answer your question as I dont rely on google to learn Dharma, people have different ways to learn. To take anything as over literal can lead to problems. Many things are coming from another language/culure and a different time in history so a lot may seem very abstract. I guess I am lucky to have lived within these traditions and learned through that way, so its easier for me to see the direct meaning in what maybe considered as abstract, but each of our experiences and learning tools are different.
:anjali:
you can't get pass biology. You need eat soup. We need manure, get some reactions going on to get chemical compounds. The esoteric here is you get minerals because your intestines can do it. Poop is important it takes a long way to get to manure what reacts to get appropriate compounds.

poop is godsent, a blessing. Its what peeps get it otherway around like poop is the waste, waste isn't a deragatory term it is base of life, the last of us. What i think intestines are three of life and the two persons who survive are who hide into that tree.


Or intestines are the longest river we should wash with that water there what flows in it.

Sodom and Gomorrah are two balls. You don't want to live there, happiness and laughter born from lust.


(by the way what forums discusses these things, esoteric meanings and all[do you know any and can suggest]?)

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:04 pm

Namaste Auto
(by the way what forums discusses these things, esoteric meanings and all[do you know any and can suggest]?)
I am not sure, all forums and other discussions online will have some form of discussing the esoteric side.

How we notice these things is by refining our own minds with practice however ones does that.

:anjali:

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