Two Naked Buddhas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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salty-J
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by salty-J »

pink_trike wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:oh but California is California and not america or the west per say, it's of in it's own little world in a way.
Yes. Its very unique. Especially Northern California.
.....and Southern California..... :jedi:
(heheh, just kidding. Northern California does seem to have the majority of cool Buddhist centers from what I can find... :cry: )
"It is what it is." -foreman infamous for throwing wrenches in fits of rage
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Beware the Mamayānists.

The Mamayāna

Those who follow this school are not really followers at all, but leaders. They regard all schools as inferior to their own views and opinions. Picking what they like, and rejecting what they don’t approve of, they construct their own form of Buddhism, with bits and pieces they find in other philosophies and religions. In general, they reject any teaching about rebirth, recollection of previous lives, or psychic powers because their approach is pragmatic and scientific. “Seeing is believing” as the saying goes, so they believe whatever they see as right, and dismiss anything that they cannot understand.
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PeterB
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by PeterB »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Beware the Mamayānists.

The Mamayāna

Those who follow this school are not really followers at all, but leaders. They regard all schools as inferior to their own views and opinions. Picking what they like, and rejecting what they don’t approve of, they construct their own form of Buddhism, with bits and pieces they find in other philosophies and religions. In general, they reject any teaching about rebirth, recollection of previous lives, or psychic powers because their approach is pragmatic and scientific. “Seeing is believing” as the saying goes, so they believe whatever they see as right, and dismiss anything that they cannot understand.
:namaste:
Hear hear.
Speculation about how Buddhism might or might not develop in the west is just that, speculation, Even worse is ponitificating about how it should develop. The Dhamma will find its way to the degree that our bums wear out our cushions. 'Twas ever thus.
The idea that the Dhamma was idling until our arrival on the scene in Idaho or Manchester or Paris or Bucharest or Darwin is entertaining but probably delusional.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Kim OHara »

Hello, Peter,
PeterB wrote: Speculation about how Buddhism might or might not develop in the west is just that, speculation, Even worse is ponitificating about how it should develop. The Dhamma will find its way to the degree that our bums wear out our cushions. 'Twas ever thus.
I'll agree with all that, except the implication that speculation is always bad.
PeterB wrote: The idea that the Dhamma was idling until our arrival on the scene in Idaho or Manchester or Paris or Bucharest or Darwin is entertaining but probably delusional.
Where did you ever hear that idea?
:cookoo:
But - just to reciprocate - the idea that any philosophy or set of cultural practices (and Buddhism is both) could ever be transplanted holus-bolus, lock-stock-and-barrel, from any traditional Asian setting into a modern Western setting is idealistic but (you guessed it) probably delusional.
That being the case, I think we need to think about the transition, evolution, naturalisation or whatever you like to call it. The two Naked Buddhas which prompted me to start this thread are two such attempts.

:namaste:
Kim
PeterB
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by PeterB »

I think we need to practice The Dhamma. Not develop strategies. As Cooran's sig says, " the trouble is you think you have time".
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mikenz66
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by mikenz66 »

PeterB wrote:I think we need to practice The Dhamma. Not develop strategies.
Of courrse!. That's what I was trying to get at with my quote from Daniel Ingram. If one is interested in liberation then the instruction manuals that we have that have come out of Asia over the last century on how to develop sila, samadhi and panna are perfectly adequate.

Speaking for myself, the most serious obstacle I have is putting in the effort to apply it, not working out what is needed...

We don't need to worry about strategies for developing western cultural trappings to replace the eastern ones. They are already arising naturally...
In the West, this translates to people “practicing Buddhism” by becoming
neurotic about being Buddhist, accumulating lots of pretty books and
expensive props, learning just enough of some new language to be
pretentious, and by sitting on a cushion engaged in free-form
psychological whatnot while doing nothing resembling meditative
practices. They may aspire to no level of mastery of anything and may
never even have been told what these practices were actually designed to
achieve.
Metta
Mike
PeterB
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by PeterB »

Quite so Mike.
I remember Luang Por Sumedho talking about when he was sent to the UK by Luang Por Chah to develop a centre. Some time had gone by and he had no idea how to proceed. One day he was on alms round in a London suburb, which in those days was largely fruitless in terms of feeding the monks, but he wanted to maintain the tradition. On this particular day he was approached by a young man who was jogging past. He asked Luang Por what he was doing. When he discovered what was going on he said " I have just inherited a forest and a house in Sussex, would you like them ? "
That was the beginning of Chithurst/Wat Cittiviveka. Lung Por said, " What I drew from that is if we are true to what we are given, we dont need to worry about the future".
Or to quote John Lennon. " Life is what happens while we are busy making plans.."

:anjali:

metta.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

PeterB wrote:One day he was on alms round in a London suburb, which in those days was largely fruitless in terms of feeding the monks, but he wanted to maintain the tradition. On this particular day he was approached by a young man who was jogging past. He asked Luang Por what he was doing. When he discovered what was going on he said " I have just inherited a forest and a house in Sussex, would you like them ? "
It didn't happen quite like that. The jogger only offered the forest. The English Sangha Trust sold the Hampstead Vihara to finance the purchase of Chithurst House.

How the Buddha Came to Sussex
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Kim OHara
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Kim OHara »

Hello, Mike and Peter,
You are both quite clear about what you don't want modern western Buddhism to become - and I agree with you - but less clear about what you do want it to become.
Do either of you seriously think Buddhism can thrive in our societies as a monastic tradition supported by a lay population whose practice consists largely of the five precepts, dana and devotion?

:namaste:
Kim
PeterB
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by PeterB »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
PeterB wrote:One day he was on alms round in a London suburb, which in those days was largely fruitless in terms of feeding the monks, but he wanted to maintain the tradition. On this particular day he was approached by a young man who was jogging past. He asked Luang Por what he was doing. When he discovered what was going on he said " I have just inherited a forest and a house in Sussex, would you like them ? "
It didn't happen quite like that. The jogger only offered the forest. The English Sangha Trust sold the Hampstead Vihara to finance the purchase of Chithurst House.

How the Buddha Came to Sussex
I stand corrected Bhante, thank you.
:anjali:
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zavk
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by zavk »

Interesting thread... haven't been online much recently but this reminds me of something I read.

I think most, if not all, contemporary Buddhists would not disagree that it is important to attune the Dhamma to contemporary circumstances. This is a process that has occurred many times in the history of Buddhism as it migrated into different countries and cultures. In fact, we might say that one reason Buddhism has survived for so long is because it has been able to adapt to different cultures in innovative ways. As Ven. Huifeng and Kim suggest, the adaption of Buddhism in China is one good example.

This process of adaptation--a process of change and transformation--is really a process of innovation, and innovation is necessary if the Dhamma is to maintain its vitality. (Note: innovation should not be confused as embellishment).

Yet, this process has always been described as a kind of 'stripping back'. In the past, various schools and sects in China, Japan, Tibet, etc, have all made the claim that they teach the 'original' teachings of the Buddha, even though their interpretations of the Dhamma are shaped by dialogues with other traditions, philosophies, and practices. Some modern day successors of these schools/sects still make the same claim.

A similar claim is being made for modern Buddhism. This is most evident in scientific interpretations of Buddhism that emerged out of nineteenth century western scholarship. These interpretations still influence contemporary Buddhism. These interpretations are products of our time; they reflect the process of adaptation and change that the Dhamma must inevitably go through. These interpretations of the Dhamma are unique to our historical circumstances. Yet, like those schools/sects of premodern Asia, modern (scientific) Buddhism is making the often repeated claim that it is merely 'stripping back' the Dhamma, rather than 'giving shape' to it.

So it seems to me that a certain habit has persisted throughout the history of Buddhism.

Anyway I think this passage from Donald Lopez Jr's Buddhism and Science raise some interesting points:
Innovation has, of course, occurred in myriad ways over the course of the tradition, but that innovation must always be portrayed as elaboration, as yet another articulation of the Buddha's enlightenment. The content of this enlightenment is not regarded as a vague truth, the ever-receding point of an endless path; the content of the Buddha's enlightenment is described in detail in various Buddhist traditions. It is not, as the Victorian delighted in declaring, that Buddhism has no dogmas. It is perhaps that it has too many.

Yet there is a certain parallel between the Buddha of the tradition and the Buddha of science. The Buddha of the tradition is validated by being the last or, more accurately, most recent in a long line of enlightened beings who have discovered, and taught, the same truth. The Buddha of science is validated not by being the end, but at the origin, as the perfected the person who discovered truths that lesser men would only learn millennia later. For the Buddha of tradition to be valid, he must have understood what others had known long before him. For the Buddha of science to be valid, he must have understood what others did not know and would not know, until long after him.

Each of these visions is profoundly retrospective; each evinces a deep longing for the primordial. The authority of the Buddha of the tradition derives from the fact that he has simply rediscovered eternal truths that the prehistoric buddhas had also found; much of the early literature recounts their lives more than they do his. And the disciples of the Buddha of science derive deep comfort from the thought that modern discoveries in quantum physics were known by the ancient Buddha, so long ago (pp. 138-139).
Lopez's language here is slightly provocative, but I don't think he is belittling Buddhism or the possibility of Awakening as such. I think he is making an important point about how we conceptualise Buddhism. As I have highlighted in the quote above, are we in fact unconsciously longing for the primordial when we repeatedly claim that we are merely ‘stripping back’ the Dhamma or that we have unmediated access to what the Buddha 'originally taught'? In this instance, the primordial is not 'God' or some Divine Essence, but is rather located in conceptuality, in our conceptions of Buddhism.

In doing so, are we unconsciously seeking to secure the ‘self’ on a permanent, fixed conceptual ground—whilst all the while proclaiming that we need to realise that there is no permanent, fixed self?

The challenge, as I see it, is how we might maintain the tradition and translate the Dhamma in innovative ways without clinging too tightly to either of them.
Last edited by zavk on Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
With metta,
zavk
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mikenz66
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote: You are both quite clear about what you don't want modern western Buddhism to become - and I agree with you - but less clear about what you do want it to become.
Because I have no idea, and no way of influencing such a thing, beyond supporting the teachers I care about.
Kim O'Hara wrote: Do either of you seriously think Buddhism can thrive in our societies as a monastic tradition supported by a lay population whose practice consists largely of the five precepts, dana and devotion?
Who knows? At present the teachers I have had a significant amount of instruction from (monks my Wat and at the Ajahn Chah monasteries) are supported like that. Of course, right now if there wasn't a Thai community in New Zealand they might be going a little hungry...

Metta
Mike
PeterB
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by PeterB »

Kim O'Hara wrote:Hello, Mike and Peter,
You are both quite clear about what you don't want modern western Buddhism to become - and I agree with you - but less clear about what you do want it to become.
Do either of you seriously think Buddhism can thrive in our societies as a monastic tradition supported by a lay population whose practice consists largely of the five precepts, dana and devotion?

:namaste:
Kim
Ah yes, " when did you stop beating your wife".
Thats called a closed question Mr O Hara. The centres I know best in the Uk are the above mentioned Chithurst, Amaravati, Harnham Vihara and Wat Buddhapadipa. In each case the lay populations contribution goes way beyond precepts, dana and devotion. In each case there is a thriving community of lay meditators who are living the Dhamma life as householders.
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