Krishnamurty-inspired off-topic posts

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:37 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:20 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:31 am

I don't disagree with you. But, I do disagree with you. I find any description that I give about these matters utterly inconclusive because of the nature of description, whether it seems orderly or not, because of its source in the thought structure. It doesn't change anything. In a sense, there are only wrong views and we are like drowning men grasping at something to save us. This thought structure wants to survive. I don't think there is any 'right' structure to work with it. This is part of the illusion. It is grasping.
The situation is,
in the relative sense , the Buddha says there is a relative right view , in the absolute sense , right view is the cessation of defilements / Nibbana .
You assert that Ug maintain there is No way which is just a different perspective .
How do you explain more than 500 disciples attained arahantship at the Buddha time ?!

The thought structure you are portraying is not the ultimate dilemma that is something unable to be deconstructed .
The illusion veil will be unfolded once we abandon the ignorance when following the noble eight right path and thus attain the right view .
Following that is cutting off the craving and defilements .Therefore , nothing is change other than the Perspective of the mind .
There is no way for me to comment on a story that might or might not have happened 2500 years ago. Doesn't that seem reasonable?
The letting go shows me that there is no dilemma to be deconstructed. The letting go lets go of the illusion veil so you can see the real nature of mind and phenomenon which is empty and vast and without defilements. Then I can see the illusions I once held and right view is automatic in this state. There is no trying, attainment, or becoming anything. If you experience the letting go that we are talking about, your world is changed in a new way.

James Tan
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:16 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:37 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:20 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:31 am

I don't disagree with you. But, I do disagree with you. I find any description that I give about these matters utterly inconclusive because of the nature of description, whether it seems orderly or not, because of its source in the thought structure. It doesn't change anything. In a sense, there are only wrong views and we are like drowning men grasping at something to save us. This thought structure wants to survive. I don't think there is any 'right' structure to work with it. This is part of the illusion. It is grasping.
The situation is,
in the relative sense , the Buddha says there is a relative right view , in the absolute sense , right view is the cessation of defilements / Nibbana .
You assert that Ug maintain there is No way which is just a different perspective .
How do you explain more than 500 disciples attained arahantship at the Buddha time ?!

The thought structure you are portraying is not the ultimate dilemma that is something unable to be deconstructed .
The illusion veil will be unfolded once we abandon the ignorance when following the noble eight right path and thus attain the right view .
Following that is cutting off the craving and defilements .Therefore , nothing is change other than the Perspective of the mind .
There is no way for me to comment on a story that might or might not have happened 2500 years ago. Doesn't that seem reasonable?
The letting go shows me that there is no dilemma to be deconstructed. The letting go lets go of the illusion veil so you can see the real nature of mind and phenomenon which is empty and vast and without defilements. Then I can see the illusions I once held and right view is automatic in this state. There is no trying, attainment, or becoming anything. If you experience the letting go that we are talking about, your world is changed in a new way.
With the same understanding there is no way for others to know whether your real nature of your mind you are saying is similar to what Buddha said about Nibbana .
:reading:

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:16 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:37 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:20 am


The situation is,
in the relative sense , the Buddha says there is a relative right view , in the absolute sense , right view is the cessation of defilements / Nibbana .
You assert that Ug maintain there is No way which is just a different perspective .
How do you explain more than 500 disciples attained arahantship at the Buddha time ?!

The thought structure you are portraying is not the ultimate dilemma that is something unable to be deconstructed .
The illusion veil will be unfolded once we abandon the ignorance when following the noble eight right path and thus attain the right view .
Following that is cutting off the craving and defilements .Therefore , nothing is change other than the Perspective of the mind .
There is no way for me to comment on a story that might or might not have happened 2500 years ago. Doesn't that seem reasonable?
The letting go shows me that there is no dilemma to be deconstructed. The letting go lets go of the illusion veil so you can see the real nature of mind and phenomenon which is empty and vast and without defilements. Then I can see the illusions I once held and right view is automatic in this state. There is no trying, attainment, or becoming anything. If you experience the letting go that we are talking about, your world is changed in a new way.
With the same understanding there is no way for others to know whether your real nature of your mind you are saying is similar to what Buddha said about Nibbana .
These are the kinds of distinctions that drop away.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:19 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:31 am
In a sense, there are only wrong views and we are like drowning men grasping at something to save us. This thought structure wants to survive. I don't think there is any 'right' structure to work with it. This is part of the illusion. It is grasping.
But that is still a view, and you are using it to describe, what you say, is a more accurate direction as opposed to an inaccurate one. Just because you are simultaneously denying its significance doesn't unmake the view/direction.

Again, with all due respect, denial of significance only solidifies a wrong view further because you are intentionally attempting to change the arisen nature of a thing after it has already arisen in a certain way. That means you have the thing how it arose and the denial right on top of it. The great illusion denial grants is that one can control significance and choose a nature, and although one would hope that denial would eliminate that origin view, it only compounds it into a more complicated picture. As I see it, that is nothing but placing a blanket over suffering.
The only way that it is possible to understand my statement, 'in a sense, there are only wrong views', is to let go of all your thinking and discover the nature of mind, not the content of it. That nature is empty of self and is knowing and present. All phenomenon both external and internal have the same nature, empty. The spaciousness of your own nature knows no boundaries. All attachment to what arises is absent. Everything is happening within this field of your own nature and there is no problem to solve or anything to achieve or know. There is only this display and a knowingness that is vast and present. Self and phenomenon are not different in their essence. That is your view without having a view, a viewless view, because there is no center that is looking out. The nature of the mind does not grasp because it knows. If you see your own nature, you know this to be true.

James Tan
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:06 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:16 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:37 pm

There is no way for me to comment on a story that might or might not have happened 2500 years ago. Doesn't that seem reasonable?
The letting go shows me that there is no dilemma to be deconstructed. The letting go lets go of the illusion veil so you can see the real nature of mind and phenomenon which is empty and vast and without defilements. Then I can see the illusions I once held and right view is automatic in this state. There is no trying, attainment, or becoming anything. If you experience the letting go that we are talking about, your world is changed in a new way.
With the same understanding there is no way for others to know whether your real nature of your mind you are saying is similar to what Buddha said about Nibbana .
These are the kinds of distinctions that drop away.
So you are saying the thinker has vanished from you ? But , do you still get offended by others ? Do you gets angry once a while ? Do you craves for food ?
:reading:

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:34 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:06 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:16 pm


With the same understanding there is no way for others to know whether your real nature of your mind you are saying is similar to what Buddha said about Nibbana .
These are the kinds of distinctions that drop away.
So you are saying the thinker has vanished from you ? But , do you still get offended by others ? Do you gets angry once a while ? Do you craves for food ?
I understand what you are asking, but your questions show me that you want to get rid of these things called thinker, hurt, anger. These are all dreamed up by your own mind, thought structure. What I'm suggesting is that when you let go of your discursive thinking and feeling, the thinker and the anger are also let go of. They are a kind of illusion that your thinking has produced. When you let go of this, you begin to 'see' the nature of your mind, which has no thinker, no self, and no judgement about the display of life. The sense of problem is absent. It's not that you don't think anymore. The thinking appears within the vast space of mind and ends there. No attachment to it. No grasping of it. No analysis of it. It is seen instantaneously as empty. The nature of mind and things are empty. This is a great insight that is clear and present.

Do I live like this every moment? No. The habits of the thought structure are very strong. I might say there has been a hole punched through this structure to allow me to be reminded again and again about the nature of things and experiencing this vastness, this flow. To borrow a phrase from UG, the thought structure is 'world-mind'. Penetrating this is insight into your own true nature which is problem free, empty of self, and vast presence. Letting go is the only way I know to 'see' and experience this. Other ways are a wrestling match, a fight. Those are the way of dukkha, psychological suffering.

James Tan
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by James Tan » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:36 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:34 am
James Tan wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:06 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 am

These are the kinds of distinctions that drop away.
So you are saying the thinker has vanished from you ? But , do you still get offended by others ? Do you gets angry once a while ? Do you craves for food ?
I understand what you are asking, but your questions show me that you want to get rid of these things called thinker, hurt, anger. These are all dreamed up by your own mind, thought structure. What I'm suggesting is that when you let go of your discursive thinking and feeling, the thinker and the anger are also let go of. They are a kind of illusion that your thinking has produced. When you let go of this, you begin to 'see' the nature of your mind, which has no thinker, no self, and no judgement about the display of life. The sense of problem is absent. It's not that you don't think anymore. The thinking appears within the vast space of mind and ends there. No attachment to it. No grasping of it. No analysis of it. It is seen instantaneously as empty. The nature of mind and things are empty. This is a great insight that is clear and present.

Do I live like this every moment? No. The habits of the thought structure are very strong. I might say there has been a hole punched through this structure to allow me to be reminded again and again about the nature of things and experiencing this vastness, this flow. To borrow a phrase from UG, the thought structure is 'world-mind'. Penetrating this is insight into your own true nature which is problem free, empty of self, and vast presence. Letting go is the only way I know to 'see' and experience this. Other ways are a wrestling match, a fight. Those are the way of dukkha, psychological suffering.
I understand what you are saying .
Yes , it is ever present and every now and then when one is not occupied with daily routine , it would again "emerge" so to speak . At times this utter silence pervades one whole being .
:reading:

auto
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by auto » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:25 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm
The only way that it is possible to understand my statement, 'in a sense, there are only wrong views', is to let go of all your thinking and discover the nature of mind, not the content of it. That nature is empty of self and is knowing and present. All phenomenon both external and internal have the same nature, empty. The spaciousness of your own nature knows no boundaries. All attachment to what arises is absent. Everything is happening within this field of your own nature and there is no problem to solve or anything to achieve or know. There is only this display and a knowingness that is vast and present. Self and phenomenon are not different in their essence. That is your view without having a view, a viewless view, because there is no center that is looking out. The nature of the mind does not grasp because it knows. If you see your own nature, you know this to be true.
jhanas are dwellings of 'here and now'

you must see what is the issue. You can't let go randomly. 3rd jhana is you are aware of yearning and equanimity, equanimity will be 4th jhana when yearning is overcome, solved.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:05 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:25 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm
The only way that it is possible to understand my statement, 'in a sense, there are only wrong views', is to let go of all your thinking and discover the nature of mind, not the content of it. That nature is empty of self and is knowing and present. All phenomenon both external and internal have the same nature, empty. The spaciousness of your own nature knows no boundaries. All attachment to what arises is absent. Everything is happening within this field of your own nature and there is no problem to solve or anything to achieve or know. There is only this display and a knowingness that is vast and present. Self and phenomenon are not different in their essence. That is your view without having a view, a viewless view, because there is no center that is looking out. The nature of the mind does not grasp because it knows. If you see your own nature, you know this to be true.
jhanas are dwellings of 'here and now'

you must see what is the issue. You can't let go randomly. 3rd jhana is you are aware of yearning and equanimity, equanimity will be 4th jhana when yearning is overcome, solved.
Let us know if you get there.

auto
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by auto » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:19 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:05 pm
Let us know if you get there.
i will just drink till i pass out, my horse knows where the home is.
What you mean?


I get it, you have solved your issue and now you are ever free? that's a wrong view to have.

auto
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by auto » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:45 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:34 am
I understand what you are asking, but your questions show me that you want to get rid of these things called thinker, hurt, anger. These are all dreamed up by your own mind, thought structure. What I'm suggesting is that when you let go of your discursive thinking and feeling, the thinker and the anger are also let go of. They are a kind of illusion that your thinking has produced. When you let go of this, you begin to 'see' the nature of your mind, which has no thinker, no self, and no judgement about the display of life. The sense of problem is absent. It's not that you don't think anymore. The thinking appears within the vast space of mind and ends there. No attachment to it. No grasping of it. No analysis of it. It is seen instantaneously as empty. The nature of mind and things are empty. This is a great insight that is clear and present.

Do I live like this every moment? No. The habits of the thought structure are very strong. I might say there has been a hole punched through this structure to allow me to be reminded again and again about the nature of things and experiencing this vastness, this flow. To borrow a phrase from UG, the thought structure is 'world-mind'. Penetrating this is insight into your own true nature which is problem free, empty of self, and vast presence. Letting go is the only way I know to 'see' and experience this. Other ways are a wrestling match, a fight. Those are the way of dukkha, psychological suffering.
cessation of perception and feeling is cessation of mental fabrications. And it happen in a order like there is verbal fabrications cessation and bodily fabrication cessation and then there is cessation of mental fabrications.

what i suspect you are buying into trance and dental. Or was it trancendental.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:55 am

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:45 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:34 am
I understand what you are asking, but your questions show me that you want to get rid of these things called thinker, hurt, anger. These are all dreamed up by your own mind, thought structure. What I'm suggesting is that when you let go of your discursive thinking and feeling, the thinker and the anger are also let go of. They are a kind of illusion that your thinking has produced. When you let go of this, you begin to 'see' the nature of your mind, which has no thinker, no self, and no judgement about the display of life. The sense of problem is absent. It's not that you don't think anymore. The thinking appears within the vast space of mind and ends there. No attachment to it. No grasping of it. No analysis of it. It is seen instantaneously as empty. The nature of mind and things are empty. This is a great insight that is clear and present.

Do I live like this every moment? No. The habits of the thought structure are very strong. I might say there has been a hole punched through this structure to allow me to be reminded again and again about the nature of things and experiencing this vastness, this flow. To borrow a phrase from UG, the thought structure is 'world-mind'. Penetrating this is insight into your own true nature which is problem free, empty of self, and vast presence. Letting go is the only way I know to 'see' and experience this. Other ways are a wrestling match, a fight. Those are the way of dukkha, psychological suffering.
cessation of perception and feeling is cessation of mental fabrications. And it happen in a order like there is verbal fabrications cessation and bodily fabrication cessation and then there is cessation of mental fabrications.

what i suspect you are buying into trance and dental. Or was it trancendental.
I do need some dental work.

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SDC
Posts: 4408
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Re: Krishnamurty-inspired off-topic posts

Post by SDC » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:16 pm

Very sorry for the delay, been a busy few weeks.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm
The only way that it is possible to understand my statement, 'in a sense, there are only wrong views', is to let go of all your thinking and discover the nature of mind, not the content of it.
Nature of mind is not the most fundamental position in regards to phenomena. Such a view assumes the existence of mind to precede experience. That means mind is always going to be pre-phenomenal and more primordial that experience itself. Do you see how complex that assertion is when you say "nature of mind" as opposed to something like "nature of Things"? You describe it as a letting go, but in its essence it is merely the adoption of a view that would strip one of their responsibility in regards to a nature that is more fundamental mind. "Mind", in your model, is "content" that always exists regardless of the experience, i.e. it can never be overcome because of the prominence you granted it.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm
Self and phenomenon are not different in their essence. That is your view without having a view, a viewless view, because there is no center that is looking out. The nature of the mind does not grasp because it knows. If you see your own nature, you know this to be true.
There is a center of experience: the body. You cannot physically abandon the body. What you can abandon is ownership of that center, by seeing that ownership is implied by holding to that pre-phenomenal priority I discussed above, i.e. even though it is just a phenomena, it arises with a significance that places it outside of that nature. This cannot be denied out of the picture, because even that denial serves to reassert that significance negatively. In other words, denial of significance is a significant act and therefore cannot serve to remove significance; all you can do is transfer it to somewhere else. This of course changes nothing - the significance of ownership remains whether or not you call it self.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Krishnamurty-inspired off-topic posts

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:30 pm

SDC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:16 pm
Very sorry for the delay, been a busy few weeks.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm
The only way that it is possible to understand my statement, 'in a sense, there are only wrong views', is to let go of all your thinking and discover the nature of mind, not the content of it.
Nature of mind is not the most fundamental position in regards to phenomena. Such a view assumes the existence of mind to precede experience. That means mind is always going to be pre-phenomenal and more primordial that experience itself. Do you see how complex that assertion is when you say "nature of mind" as opposed to something like "nature of Things"? You describe it as a letting go, but in its essence it is merely the adoption of a view that would strip one of their responsibility in regards to a nature that is more fundamental mind. "Mind", in your model, is "content" that always exists regardless of the experience, i.e. it can never be overcome because of the prominence you granted it.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 pm
Self and phenomenon are not different in their essence. That is your view without having a view, a viewless view, because there is no center that is looking out. The nature of the mind does not grasp because it knows. If you see your own nature, you know this to be true.
There is a center of experience: the body. You cannot physically abandon the body. What you can abandon is ownership of that center, by seeing that ownership is implied by holding to that pre-phenomenal priority I discussed above, i.e. even though it is just a phenomena, it arises with a significance that places it outside of that nature. This cannot be denied out of the picture, because even that denial serves to reassert that significance negatively. In other words, denial of significance is a significant act and therefore cannot serve to remove significance; all you can do is transfer it to somewhere else. This of course changes nothing - the significance of ownership remains whether or not you call it self.
I think the difficulty we are having is in what we define as phenomena. For example, do we really see things or are we seeing the 'image' of things? I think Buddha as well as neuro scientists say that all experience is within our minds, the thought structure, the image making activity, our perceptions. We are not actually having a direct experience of sense objects. We have experience of our thought structure, the world mind. This gives the impression that this structure precedes the sense bases and is primordial which it is not.

So, I agree with you that the body is central. According to U.G., if you see that this structure can never touch 'life', can never go beyond itself, an event is triggered that stops the assignment of ownership, identity, craving, and attachment leaving the body in its natural state which has an extraordinary intelligence that operates maximally when there is no interference from the thought structure. It is the end of stress and that separate entity. Cessation. It is a death experience but the body continues. U.G. said many times that all it takes is a fraction of a second of the break of this continuity and the whole thing collapses, the end of the dream of existence. However, the caveat he states is that no activity of this world-mind or thought structure can ever bring this about. No amount of energy or will can be brought to bear because this also is part of the conditioned structure. A complete letting go takes place. It is not volitional. All becoming ceases along with notions of time and space. Of course, I'm repeating U.G.'s words as you are repeating someone else's words that describe this subject. No blame in this, it cannot be any other way as long as the structure remains in place. He often said 'there is no one here and no one having an experience'.

chownah
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Re: Krishnamurty-inspired off-topic posts

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:30 pm
U.G. said many times that all it takes is a fraction of a second of the break of this continuity and the whole thing collapses, the end of the dream of existence. However, the caveat he states is that no activity of this world-mind or thought structure can ever bring this about. No amount of energy or will can be brought to bear because this also is part of the conditioned structure. A complete letting go takes place. It is not volitional. All becoming ceases along with notions of time and space.
I think that UG would be standing more closely to the truth if he had said "all it took for me was a fraction of a second of the break of my perception of continuity and the whole thing seemed to collapse, the end of my dream of existence. For me it seems that no activity of this world-mind or thought structure could ever bring this about. It seemed that no amount of energy or will which I exerted could be brought to bear because it seemed to also be part of the perceived conditioned structure. A complete letting go took place. It was not volitional. All becoming ceased along with notions of time and space."

This restatement show how whatever he said should have been bounded in scope to his own preceived experience......it looks like you are presenting UG as someone who had a psychic knowledge of all experience in all places and throughout all time. Is that what UG claimed?
chownah

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