Krishnamurty-inspired off-topic posts

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Saengnapha
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 am
SDC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:13 pm
The concepts of impermanence and not-self cannot be grasped in any real sense until they have been thoroughly worn down. See AN 4.49: a distortion in the mind of the non-ariya is the taking of that which is not-self as self, and the tipping of the scale in the other direction - taking what is not-self as not-self in that most general sense - isn't a mere decision to be made. Sure you can believe it to be the way things are, but until the distortion is cleared, it is only mere belief.
I'd certainly agree that the three marks are not beliefs to be taken on, they are more like pointers, or theories to be examined. It's more like a gradual realisation, based on consistent observation, a consistent noticing - combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions about the nature of experience.
So what you are suggesting is that time is the tool that will take away our ignorance. One observes and continues to observe and makes further assumptions about the nature of experience. To me, this is just trying to sharpen the intellect, to give credence to the thought structure which is time itself. How can this be a gradual realisation? Using thought to sort out ideas and turn them into reality is impossible. It just doesn't happen that way. The distortion seems to be this process itself. You cannot get to the undistorted through distortion no matter what anyone says. Perhaps during this process of inspection, one steps away once and for all from it, abandons it in a moment. Time does not whittle down ignorance or distortion. This is another illusion, another distortion of the dream of existence.

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SDC
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by SDC » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:02 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am
So what you are suggesting is that time is the tool that will take away our ignorance. One observes and continues to observe and makes further assumptions about the nature of experience. To me, this is just trying to sharpen the intellect, to give credence to the thought structure which is time itself. How can this be a gradual realisation? Using thought to sort out ideas and turn them into reality is impossible. It just doesn't happen that way. The distortion seems to be this process itself. You cannot get to the undistorted through distortion no matter what anyone says. Perhaps during this process of inspection, one steps away once and for all from it, abandons it in a moment. Time does not whittle down ignorance or distortion. This is another illusion, another distortion of the dream of existence.
Take a look at SN 22.101, which I quoted earlier.

Saengnapha
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:01 pm

SDC wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:02 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am
So what you are suggesting is that time is the tool that will take away our ignorance. One observes and continues to observe and makes further assumptions about the nature of experience. To me, this is just trying to sharpen the intellect, to give credence to the thought structure which is time itself. How can this be a gradual realisation? Using thought to sort out ideas and turn them into reality is impossible. It just doesn't happen that way. The distortion seems to be this process itself. You cannot get to the undistorted through distortion no matter what anyone says. Perhaps during this process of inspection, one steps away once and for all from it, abandons it in a moment. Time does not whittle down ignorance or distortion. This is another illusion, another distortion of the dream of existence.
Take a look at SN 22.101, which I quoted earlier.
I know this is what you believe and you produce something that may or may not have been said by the Buddha but which you believe to be true. However, my above statement about time and the using of the thought structure to free oneself from distortion still stands. Development is a statement about time and the 're-working' of the thought structure. One can certainly work at this, but logic doesn't conclude that it ends the distortion because you never penetrate the nature of the thought structure. You just adjust it. This process only repeats itself. It doesn't bring itself to an end because it wants to survive at any cost. This is the dream of existence. Someone trying to free oneself, develop oneself has already a distorted view of reality.

auto
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by auto » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:36 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Just as in the last month of the Rains, in the autumn season when the crops are ripening, a cowherd would look after his cows: He would tap & poke & check & curb them with a stick on this side & that. Why is that? Because he foresees flogging or imprisonment or a fine or public censure arising from that [if he let his cows wander into the crops]. In the same way I foresaw in unskillful qualities drawbacks, degradation, & defilement, and I foresaw in skillful qualities rewards related to renunciation & promoting cleansing.
-
"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

this how Buddha thought when he was unawakened Bodhisatta
The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with ill will, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-ill will, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another sort.
Last edited by auto on Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by SDC » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:01 pm
I know this is what you believe and you produce something that may or may not have been said by the Buddha but which you believe to be true. However, my above statement about time and the using of the thought structure to free oneself from distortion still stands. Development is a statement about time and the 're-working' of the thought structure. One can certainly work at this, but logic doesn't conclude that it ends the distortion because you never penetrate the nature of the thought structure. You just adjust it. This process only repeats itself. It doesn't bring itself to an end because it wants to survive at any cost. This is the dream of existence. Someone trying to free oneself, develop oneself has already a distorted view of reality.
You're saying it in your own way, but I think it's pretty much the same as what the sutta is saying. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you though.

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Krishnamurty-inspired off-topic posts

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:18 am

DNS wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:27 pm
mettafuture wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:22 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:39 am
Understanding the law of Kamma makes us more skillful in selecting our thoughts. We don't only select views because they are accurate, but we become more aware of how views have consequences especially to our behavior.
Good posting, indeed.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:21 am
The natural world is full of impermanence, full of conditionality, and there is both beauty and suffering. And I am part of that natural world.
The teachings on the elements appear to reinforce this point.
Natural selection (in a nutshell) weeds out those characteristics which are not conducive to survival and keeps those things which are best for the survival of the species. It's not the same, but similar to the way we weed out those unwholesome qualities, neuroses and cultivate the wholesome qualities so that we can make progress. It's not the same, but similar in a way and if that analogy helps one have greater conviction, faith, confidence in the teachings; then I think that is good.
It seems to me that the psychological has little to do with nature and is usually at odds with it. Weeding is not going to effect any natural law in place and will always be in contradiction to what is. This approach is all wrong and has nothing to do with Truth.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Drawing parallels with nature to rationalize Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:23 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:18 am

It seems to me that the psychological has little to do with nature and is usually at odds with it. Weeding is not going to effect any natural law in place and will always be in contradiction to what is. This approach is all wrong and has nothing to do with Truth.
It might work very well for other people, in ways that you are unfamiliar with. Claiming that an approach is wrong puts you in the position of having to prove a negative: how, in this case, are you going to do that?

Dinsdale
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:11 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 am
SDC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:13 pm
The concepts of impermanence and not-self cannot be grasped in any real sense until they have been thoroughly worn down. See AN 4.49: a distortion in the mind of the non-ariya is the taking of that which is not-self as self, and the tipping of the scale in the other direction - taking what is not-self as not-self in that most general sense - isn't a mere decision to be made. Sure you can believe it to be the way things are, but until the distortion is cleared, it is only mere belief.
I'd certainly agree that the three marks are not beliefs to be taken on, they are more like pointers, or theories to be examined. It's more like a gradual realisation, based on consistent observation, a consistent noticing - combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions about the nature of experience.
So what you are suggesting is that time is the tool that will take away our ignorance. One observes and continues to observe and makes further assumptions about the nature of experience. To me, this is just trying to sharpen the intellect, to give credence to the thought structure which is time itself. How can this be a gradual realisation? Using thought to sort out ideas and turn them into reality is impossible. It just doesn't happen that way. The distortion seems to be this process itself. You cannot get to the undistorted through distortion no matter what anyone says. Perhaps during this process of inspection, one steps away once and for all from it, abandons it in a moment. Time does not whittle down ignorance or distortion. This is another illusion, another distortion of the dream of existence.
I'm suggesting that it is consistent observation that will take away our ignorance ( satipatthana is the obvious method here ), combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions, an open mind. I mean direct observation, not thinking about stuff.

It seems that you don't agree with Buddhist practices, but what alternative you are proposing? How do you suggest we step outside the process, practically speaking?
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:17 am

SDC wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:58 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:01 pm
I know this is what you believe and you produce something that may or may not have been said by the Buddha but which you believe to be true. However, my above statement about time and the using of the thought structure to free oneself from distortion still stands. Development is a statement about time and the 're-working' of the thought structure. One can certainly work at this, but logic doesn't conclude that it ends the distortion because you never penetrate the nature of the thought structure. You just adjust it. This process only repeats itself. It doesn't bring itself to an end because it wants to survive at any cost. This is the dream of existence. Someone trying to free oneself, develop oneself has already a distorted view of reality.
You're saying it in your own way, but I think it's pretty much the same as what the sutta is saying. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you though.
Sorry but I don't see any connection here at all with SN 22.101 - could you explain?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Saengnapha
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:40 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:11 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 am


I'd certainly agree that the three marks are not beliefs to be taken on, they are more like pointers, or theories to be examined. It's more like a gradual realisation, based on consistent observation, a consistent noticing - combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions about the nature of experience.
So what you are suggesting is that time is the tool that will take away our ignorance. One observes and continues to observe and makes further assumptions about the nature of experience. To me, this is just trying to sharpen the intellect, to give credence to the thought structure which is time itself. How can this be a gradual realisation? Using thought to sort out ideas and turn them into reality is impossible. It just doesn't happen that way. The distortion seems to be this process itself. You cannot get to the undistorted through distortion no matter what anyone says. Perhaps during this process of inspection, one steps away once and for all from it, abandons it in a moment. Time does not whittle down ignorance or distortion. This is another illusion, another distortion of the dream of existence.
I'm suggesting that it is consistent observation that will take away our ignorance ( satipatthana is the obvious method here ), combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions, an open mind. I mean direct observation, not thinking about stuff.

It seems that you don't agree with Buddhist practices, but what alternative you are proposing? How do you suggest we step outside the process, practically speaking?
Observation of what, Dinsdale? Breath? Thoughts?
If our whole thought structure is based on assumptions, how can you have an open mind? It is correct to say that I don't agree with Theravada practices. There is no alternative. Everything you do is an attempt by this thought structure to escape itself, adjust itself, survive another day. You stop engaging it for anything but the mundane, the factual. When you have attention for this, that awareness of what the thought structure represents can disengage from all the chatter, all the psychological wanderings that we all do. If it doesn't stop, you are only provoking its survival by engaging in various practices and concentrations. What wants to survive is the thought structure, not a self. Everything that we know is tied up in the thought structure. The thought structure is the distortion, the dream of existence. Enlightenment is another idea of the thought structure trying to survive. Awakening is still part of the dream of existence.

Saengnapha
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Re: Drawing parallels with nature to rationalize Buddhism

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:43 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:23 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:18 am

It seems to me that the psychological has little to do with nature and is usually at odds with it. Weeding is not going to effect any natural law in place and will always be in contradiction to what is. This approach is all wrong and has nothing to do with Truth.
It might work very well for other people, in ways that you are unfamiliar with. Claiming that an approach is wrong puts you in the position of having to prove a negative: how, in this case, are you going to do that?
I'm not. That's your job to prove it to yourself. :D

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Sam Vara
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Re: Drawing parallels with nature to rationalize Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:04 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:43 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:23 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:18 am

It seems to me that the psychological has little to do with nature and is usually at odds with it. Weeding is not going to effect any natural law in place and will always be in contradiction to what is. This approach is all wrong and has nothing to do with Truth.
It might work very well for other people, in ways that you are unfamiliar with. Claiming that an approach is wrong puts you in the position of having to prove a negative: how, in this case, are you going to do that?
I'm not. That's your job to prove it to yourself. :D
I don't have any interest in proving it; nor do I have any duty to. Quite the reverse, in fact. So if you don't have any interest in proving it, then it appears that nobody has, and it can be dismissed as a bit of speculative nay-saying.

I'll point this out from time to time whenever you make unsubstantiated negative claims.

auto
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Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by auto » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:47 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:40 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:11 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am


So what you are suggesting is that time is the tool that will take away our ignorance. One observes and continues to observe and makes further assumptions about the nature of experience. To me, this is just trying to sharpen the intellect, to give credence to the thought structure which is time itself. How can this be a gradual realisation? Using thought to sort out ideas and turn them into reality is impossible. It just doesn't happen that way. The distortion seems to be this process itself. You cannot get to the undistorted through distortion no matter what anyone says. Perhaps during this process of inspection, one steps away once and for all from it, abandons it in a moment. Time does not whittle down ignorance or distortion. This is another illusion, another distortion of the dream of existence.
I'm suggesting that it is consistent observation that will take away our ignorance ( satipatthana is the obvious method here ), combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions, an open mind. I mean direct observation, not thinking about stuff.

It seems that you don't agree with Buddhist practices, but what alternative you are proposing? How do you suggest we step outside the process, practically speaking?
Observation of what, Dinsdale? Breath? Thoughts?
If our whole thought structure is based on assumptions, how can you have an open mind? It is correct to say that I don't agree with Theravada practices. There is no alternative. Everything you do is an attempt by this thought structure to escape itself, adjust itself, survive another day. You stop engaging it for anything but the mundane, the factual. When you have attention for this, that awareness of what the thought structure represents can disengage from all the chatter, all the psychological wanderings that we all do. If it doesn't stop, you are only provoking its survival by engaging in various practices and concentrations. What wants to survive is the thought structure, not a self. Everything that we know is tied up in the thought structure. The thought structure is the distortion, the dream of existence. Enlightenment is another idea of the thought structure trying to survive. Awakening is still part of the dream of existence.
Are you suggesting arupa jhanas?

Saengnapha
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Re: Drawing parallels with nature to rationalize Buddhism

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:49 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:04 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:43 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:23 am


It might work very well for other people, in ways that you are unfamiliar with. Claiming that an approach is wrong puts you in the position of having to prove a negative: how, in this case, are you going to do that?
I'm not. That's your job to prove it to yourself. :D
I don't have any interest in proving it; nor do I have any duty to. Quite the reverse, in fact. So if you don't have any interest in proving it, then it appears that nobody has, and it can be dismissed as a bit of speculative nay-saying.

I'll point this out from time to time whenever you make unsubstantiated negative claims.
Whatever you say, Sam. Whether I have any interest in proving something has no relationship with whether someone else has an interest in proving it. Do I need to prove salt is salty to someone who has not tasted salt? Find out for yourself if what I said works or not. I can't even prove that I exist. Maybe you'd like to try?

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is samudayo (arising)? What is it that is arising?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:50 pm

auto wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:47 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:40 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:11 am


I'm suggesting that it is consistent observation that will take away our ignorance ( satipatthana is the obvious method here ), combined with a willingness to challenge our assumptions, an open mind. I mean direct observation, not thinking about stuff.

It seems that you don't agree with Buddhist practices, but what alternative you are proposing? How do you suggest we step outside the process, practically speaking?
Observation of what, Dinsdale? Breath? Thoughts?
If our whole thought structure is based on assumptions, how can you have an open mind? It is correct to say that I don't agree with Theravada practices. There is no alternative. Everything you do is an attempt by this thought structure to escape itself, adjust itself, survive another day. You stop engaging it for anything but the mundane, the factual. When you have attention for this, that awareness of what the thought structure represents can disengage from all the chatter, all the psychological wanderings that we all do. If it doesn't stop, you are only provoking its survival by engaging in various practices and concentrations. What wants to survive is the thought structure, not a self. Everything that we know is tied up in the thought structure. The thought structure is the distortion, the dream of existence. Enlightenment is another idea of the thought structure trying to survive. Awakening is still part of the dream of existence.
Are you suggesting arupa jhanas?
Did I mention anything like that?

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