Bundles of reeds simile.

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SarathW
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:03 pm

Thank you Retro.
In the video, if I am not mistaken HHDL said that Buddha (perhaps he meant Nibbana) also interdependent.
I do not think this is the Theravada position.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:39 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:03 pm
Thank you Retro.
In the video, if I am not mistaken HHDL said that Buddha (perhaps he meant Nibbana) also interdependent.
I do not think this is the Theravada position.
Well, as in many of these things, it depends on how you look at it, and what you are trying to achieve. Again, without reviewing HHDLs talk one, consider this passage:
“Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with proper understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you really see with proper understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element.
https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato#nya8
This passage is using the fact that internal and external form are basically the same to assist in the realisation of the not-self nature of one's form, and to assist in letting go of it. This seems to be a helpful strategy. Of course, it's not exactly "interdependence", but it's the closest I can come up with at the moment.

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SarathW
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:45 pm

This passage is using the fact that internal and external form is basically the same to assist in the realisation of the not-self nature of one's form
In fact, HHDL use those analogies to explain Sunyata (emptiness)
Are emptiness and Anatta the same?
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mikenz66
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:03 am

Yes, emptiness is sometimes used to mean not-self. It's used in a number of ways:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81

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SarathW
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:19 am

Yes, emptiness is sometimes used to mean not-self. It's used in a number of ways:
It appears to me emptiness is something more than not self.
Perhaps the same way Anatta could mean something more than not self?
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:19 am
It appears to me emptiness is something more than not self.
In a sense you are correct.

All dhammas are devoid, or empty, of essence. (See here for what I mean by essence.)

Being devoid of essence, they are necessarily devoid of any self.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by chownah » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:52 am

I think that the word "empty" is used by the buddha to mean empty of self....isn't this precisely anatta?
chownah

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:47 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:52 am
I think that the word "empty" is used by the buddha to mean empty of self....isn't this precisely anatta?
chownah
DP verses 277,278,279
reads to the effect Sabbe sankara anicca, sabbe sankara dukka , sabbe sankara anatta.
It means that all conditioned things are impermanent , all condittioned things lead to suffering, and all conditioned things are selfless or interdependant.
With an insight it is not difficult to realise that the term conditioned appear always in paticca samuppada and it refers to 5 aggregates in reference to beings.
Sabbe sankara anatta also mean that all conditioned things( nama rupa) are not subject to ones control and thus when unconditioned there is liberation of anicca dukka anatma which is emptiness.

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by James Tan » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:54 am

The hand comprises of the arms and fingers . The arms and fingers not necessarily represent the hands . The dependent origination are not empty yet inherently empty . What arises inherently not self .
:reading:

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:59 am
Nama-rupa & vinnana are the exception to this rule, for they are actually co-dependent upon one another for its arising... hence the simile.
But not in all DO suttas, eg here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:45 pm
Are emptiness and Anatta the same?
It's really a matter of scope, for example the Heart Sutra starts with the emptiness of the five aggregates ( anatta ), and then broadens the application to include other phenomena.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:27 am
With all due respect to Sarath, the problems arise because he takes commentarial Abhidhamma notions (such as that of rupa as "materiality", and nama as "mentality") and tries to super-impose them over the suttas, where rupa actually means "form", and "nama" is as described as being exclusive of vinnana.
Though nama includes phassa, which involves vinnana. Based on what the suttas describe I still don't understand the objection to translating nama-rupa as "mentality-materiality". Rupa is most often described in terms of the four great elements.
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:53 pm
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:38 pm
Can we apply the same simile to other limbs?
Say Avijja and Sankhara.
Yes, this is correct. This is why it's called "pratitya-samutpada" or "mutually-codependent-arising".

No , does Avijja and Sankhara arises together ?
Consciousness and namarupa arises together .
:reading:

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:19 am
It appears to me emptiness is something more than not self.
In a sense you are correct.

All dhammas are devoid, or empty, of essence. (See here for what I mean by essence.)

Being devoid of essence, they are necessarily devoid of any self.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Paul,

Perhaps you could explain to me that if emptiness is really understood, and all dhammas are devoid of essence and necessarily devoid of self, why would one turn to an analysis of paticcasamupadda as a practice?

Or, I could put this another way. According to the Buddha, paticcasamupadda is exceedingly difficult for most beings to comprehend. We can see this clearly from all the debate and argument that goes on in the forum alone, not to mention all the books that have been written on the subject. We have monks like Buddhadasa talking about practicing at the level of contact, subjugating the 5 aggregates and not allowing feeling to arise and give rise to craving. That alone is almost impossible for most to do or comprehend.

OTOH, the statements about emptiness and lack of essence, lack of self, are much more easily accessed and seen in our lives. It is not intellectual at all and addresses the crux of ignorance and its results. It has immediate import of wisdom and insight. It also seems that this is where the split of Mahayana/Theravada occurs.

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:53 am

Greetings Saengnapha,
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:40 am
Perhaps you could explain to me that if emptiness is really understood, and all dhammas are devoid of essence and necessarily devoid of self, why would one turn to an analysis of paticcasamupadda as a practice?
In terms of understanding what's going on in paticcasamuppada, you really needn't go beyond nama-rupa and vinnana to get the gist of it all.

Basically, because of ignorance, we fabricate dhammas. There is consciousness of that which is fabricated, and this dhamma is garnished with name-and-form, and consciousness grasps the name-and-form, and so on...

The remaining steps just show where this all leads, from the origins of the genesis of a perception of self, through to full blown suffering when this self-ish proliferation is not curtailed. To wit, later nidanas serve as a helpful deterrent from partaking in that conceptual proliferation... something many people do not intuitively see the drawbacks of.
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:40 am
OTOH, the statements about emptiness and lack of essence, lack of self, are much more easily accessed and seen in our lives. It is not intellectual at all and addresses the crux of ignorance and its results. It has immediate import of wisdom and insight. It also seems that this is where the split of Mahayana/Theravada occurs.
Maybe... personally I think both traditions strayed beyond what they needed to, and placed emphasis in appropriate areas, but that's just my view, and my preference for Buddhavacana over later themes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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