How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:40 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:27 am
It is more and more clear to me that there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work on part of OP;
DooDoot wrote: If the Buddha did not have five aggregates, how did the Buddha walk, talk, eat, shit, see, hear and think? :shrug:
Here he clearly postulates that The Buddha has the Aggregates, postulating an entity apart from Aggregates which is of course wrong view because existence of a being cannot be pinned down neither apart nor in the aggregates. Has the aggregates or doesn't have the aggregates does not apply.

Foolish man, where did you ever see the Aggregates to be taught in this way by the Tathagata?
Oh dear. Another Dhamma lesson to give to the mind that IMAGINES things when reading suttas; a mind without grounding in the basics. :mrgreen:

...
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"
The above says the Buddha (Enlightenment) is not any of the aggregates (because Buddha is the Dhamma or Truth). However, it does not say Gotama (as a lifeform) has no aggregates. Oh dear. :roll:
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."
:strawman: :jedi:
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfying. That which is unsatisfying has ceased and gone to its end."

"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

SN 22.85
Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

SN 22.87
:lol: :roll: :mrgreen: :thanks: :pig: :focus:
Why u not adress the evidence Doot? Why u dont make a case disproving anything?
Has the aggregates has not been stated, show me one explicit Sutta statement saying that a person has the Aggregates or that a person has Name&Form. I don't think it is too much to ask to find one instance where it is taught like this? You made a critical error there assuming that a person has the Aggregates as if aggregates are one thing and a person is another.

A negative statement does not prove the positive regarding the Anurudha's negative affirmation. The point of that Sutta excerpt is that one can't pin down existence of a person neither in or outside of the Aggregates.
A common logical mistake;
Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise (illicit negative) is a formal fallacy that is committed when a categorical syllogism has a positive conclusion and one or two negative premises.

For example:

No fish are dogs, and no dogs can fly, therefore all fish can fly.

The only thing that can be properly inferred from these premises is that some things that are not fish cannot fly, provided that dogs exist.
Or:
We don't read that trash. People who read that trash don't appreciate real literature. Therefore, we appreciate real literature.

This could be illustrated mathematically as
If A ∩ B = ∅ {\displaystyle A\cap B=\emptyset } A\cap B=\emptyset and B ∩ C = ∅ {\displaystyle B\cap C=\emptyset } B\cap C=\emptyset then A ⊂ C.

It is a fallacy because any valid forms of categorical syllogism that assert a negative premise must have a negative conclusion.
The Three Kinds of Self

39. "Potthapāda, there are three kinds of commonly assumed self: material, mind-made, and formless. The first has form, is made up of the four elements, and is nourished by solid food. The second has form, is made by the mind, and has all its limbs and organs complete and perfect. The third is without form, and is made up of consciousness only.

40-42. "Now I teach a doctrine, Potthapāda, that leads to the abandoning of the mistaken assumptions about all three of these assumed selves. If you follow this doctrine, unwholesome mental states disappear and the states which tend to purification increase; and one realizes and remains in the full perfection and purity of wisdom here and now.
self-view confirmed.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:11 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:37 pm
What you have to prove is that it does so without cessation of perception and feeling... because you are saying that it is not necessary but i have equated it to the attainment of the Deathless in which development of perception of impermanence cultivates.
Are you talking about cessation of perception and feeling as a meditative attainment, or as a permanent state? I assume you mean the former, since we couldn't function without sanna which is the ability to recognise stuff.
Former as a meditative attainment in case of a temporary cessation/non-arising of contact. Regarding the permanent cessation of feeling and other aggregates for an Arahant at the breakup of the Body, when impermanent phenomena no longer arise the Unmade State is realized and there is no consequtive arising of impermanent phenomena, unbinding is complete.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:32 am

Are you talking about cessation of perception and feeling as a meditative attainment, or as a permanent state? I assume you mean the former, since we couldn't function without sanna which is the ability to recognise stuff.
also technically cessation occurs, it is not a state in itself, therefore it is said that the cessation is attained. What comes after cessation or what happens after cessation is also not a correct way to phrase the question and is akin to saying what happens after cessation of time, with cessation of time there can be no after, after the cessation of time the treshold of time is surpassed. In same way the notion of a being exists on the treshold of the made and conditioned phenomena, with the cessation of conditioned phenomena there is no notion of a being as we would be dealing with what is on the treshold of the Unmade.
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
this unmade reality is attained by means of consequent cessation of another reality, by cessation of the impermanent phenomena. It is the beyond, beyond the treshold of the conditioned and arisen.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:08 pm

Potthapada, there are these three acquisitions of a self: the gross acquisition of a self, the mind-made acquisition of a self, and the formless acquisition of a self. And what is the gross acquisition of a self? Possessed of form, made up of the four great existents, feeding on physical food: this is the gross acquisition of a self. And what is the mind-made acquisition of a self? Possessed of form, mind-made, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties: this is the mind-made acquisition of a self. And what is the formless acquisition of a self? Formless and made of perception: this is the formless acquisition of a self.

I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the gross acquisition of a self, such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now.


Potthapada Sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:14 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:52 pm

I also teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the mind-made acquisition of a self… for the abandoning of the formless acquisition of a self, such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now…

Potthapada Sutta

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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:44 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:01 am
Has the aggregates has not been stated, show me one explicit Sutta statement saying that a person has the Aggregates or that a person has Name&Form.
Oh dear. The sutta itself says it, as I posted :roll: . Its like saying: "A Buddha is not an alms bowl but a Buddha has an alms bowl".

Also, as I posted, SN 22.85 says explicitly the ending of the life of an Arahant is the ending (but not "death") of the impermanent aggregates.

I sincerely suggest for you to get a grounding in the basics. You seem to be clinging to wrong interpretations of very esoteric suttas which cannot guide your personal practise. You seem to be avoiding the heart of the Dhamma, which is avoiding practise.

In summary:

1. You personally cannot end feeling & perception (which is only for non-returners & arahants) therefore this cannot guide your practise.

2. But you can train in giving up craving.

Nibbana is the ending of craving. Nibbana is not the ending of feeling. The entire Buddha-Dhamma does not fall outside of the 1st Three Sermons.

This is my instruction to you, newbie. :anjali:
11. Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential.

12. Those who know the essential to be essential and the unessential to be unessential, dwelling in right thoughts, do arrive at the essential.

Dhammapada

rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:44 pm
I sincerely suggest you get a grounding in logic, do away with magical thinking and renounce self-view, for your own sake.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:44 pm

Greetings ,

Nibbana is the ending of greed hatred and ignorant .
Nibbana is also synonymous to liberation .

Yes, liberation doesn't mean ending of feeling perception and intention .

If liberation is ending of feeling ,
then Buddha won't be smiling .
Is the act of smiling not feeling ?!

The way to solve the issue of definition is ,

When a person still alive one attain liberation
therefore he is called an arahant.

After the break up of the aggregates with no returning it is called Nibbana .
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:12 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 pm
I sincerely suggest you get a grounding in logic, do away with magical thinking and renounce self-view, for your own sake.
Thanks. Logic can be useful although renouncing "self-view" for "own sake" doesn't sound logical. The sentiment however sounds very beneficial. :thumbsup:
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:44 pm
If liberation is ending of feeling ,
then Buddha won't be smiling .
:goodpost: Very logical.

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Pondera
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:35 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am
What is the highest escape, DooDoot? Tell me this one thing.
The suttas appear to clearly say Nirodha Samapatti is not the highest. For example:
There Venerable Sāriputta addressed the mendicants: … “Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

That is possible.

If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain group of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.166/en/sujato
How this quote states that cessation is not the highest is not clear. Also, your assertion that cessation is not the highest contradicts this quote.
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
One simple question; why does the Buddha say of Sariputta that there is no further escape beyond the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling? Simple...
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Pondera
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:23 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am
There is a beautiful passage where the Buddha himself says “I abide in a certain state almost all the time.” When I track it down I will talk to you again. For now I have had enough of your conceit and insults.
Please. Enough ridiculousness. There is obviously no passage that says the Buddha abides in Nirodha Samapatti almost all of the time. :roll:
You’re completely wrong. And I didn’t say Nirodha Samapatti. I said there’s a sutta where the Buddha says he remains in one state almost all the time. This is Nibbana - and it’s not all the time as you claim. Show me a sutta where it is said Arahants remain in Nibbana all the time.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:36 am

Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 am
How this quote states that cessation is not the highest is not clear. Also, your assertion that cessation is not the highest contradicts this quote.
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
One simple question; why does the Buddha say of Sariputta that there is no further escape beyond the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling? Simple...
We've have discussed this before. The supreme attainment of Sariputta is highlighted in RED colour. :heart:

Returning to the basics, the immaterial jhanas and cessation of feeling & perception are not found in the Noble Eightfold Path. They are optional developments.
Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"

Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 am
You’re completely wrong.
Never. ;)
Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 am
Show me a sutta where it is said Arahants remain in Nibbana all the time.
I recall i already did. MN 22 has many passages about the Arahant where defilements are not subject to future arising.Also, below:
His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Unbinding — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Unbinding, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.

MN 140

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Pondera
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:36 am
Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 am
How this quote states that cessation is not the highest is not clear. Also, your assertion that cessation is not the highest contradicts this quote.
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
One simple question; why does the Buddha say of Sariputta that there is no further escape beyond the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling? Simple...
We've have discussed this before. The supreme attainment of Sariputta is highlighted in RED colour. :heart:

Returning to the basics, the immaterial jhanas and cessation of feeling & perception are not found in the Noble Eightfold Path. They are optional developments.
Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"

Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 am
You’re completely wrong.
Never. ;)
Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 am
Show me a sutta where it is said Arahants remain in Nibbana all the time.
I recall i already did. MN 22 has many passages about the Arahant where defilements are not subject to future arising.Also, below:
His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Unbinding — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Unbinding, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.

MN 140
“Fluctuate” here means that the “attainment” is stable. Your quote implies nothin about the permanence of the attainment.

And you clearly have missed the point of the the sutta “one after another”. Sariputta could have ended the fermentations in any of the jhanas. But he does so necessarily in the attainment of cessation. And the obvious point of going through all the jhanas - stating after each one that there is a further escape is to say that in cessation there is no further escape. Sariputta could have ended the fermentations in the first jhana and - according to your logic - that would end the escape. But that clearly contradicts the sutta.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:07 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am
Your quote implies nothin about the permanence of the attainment.
Many quotes:
Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.

MN 12
:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am
And you clearly have missed the point of the the sutta “one after another”. Sariputta could have ended the fermentations in any of the jhanas.
I doubt I missed anything. I imagine it depends on the stage of the practitioner.

For example, for the stream-enterer, I imagine controlling the various jhanas is beyond their will and the jhanas occur as stages of mental purification of defilements. Therefore, the new once-returner probably cannot end the asava in the 1st jhana.

But an arahant, who, for example, has spent the day walking a long distance, when they still down at night in meditation, the 1st jhana they enter is merely due to the relaxation of the physical body. There is no calming or gradual dissolving of defilement's occurring.

Therefore, the jhana of the jhana-newbie (once-returner) is obviously different to the jhana of an arahant.

It appears you assume that Sariputta was an arahant in MN 111. But that is not possible; given there remained fermentation (asava) in his mind.

While Sariputta clung to nothing from the 1st to 9th jhana; it is obvious the asava were not ended nor could be ended in the 1st jhana.
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am
But he does so necessarily in the attainment of cessation. And the obvious point of going through all the jhanas - stating after each one that there is a further escape is to say that in cessation there is no further escape. Sariputta could have ended the fermentations in the first jhana and - according to your logic - that would end the escape. But that clearly contradicts the sutta.
I never ever implied the above. Please refrain from misrepresenting or imputing ideas to me. Thanks :thanks:

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Pondera
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:07 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am
Your quote implies nothin about the permanence of the attainment.
Many quotes:
Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.

MN 12
:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am
And you clearly have missed the point of the the sutta “one after another”. Sariputta could have ended the fermentations in any of the jhanas.
I doubt I missed anything. I imagine it depends on the stage of the practitioner.

For example, for the stream-enterer, I imagine controlling the various jhanas is beyond their will and the jhanas occur as stages of mental purification of defilements. Therefore, the new once-returner probably cannot end the asava in the 1st jhana.

But an arahant, who, for example, has spent the day walking a long distance, when they still down at night in meditation, the 1st jhana they enter is merely due to the relaxation of the physical body. There is no calming or gradual dissolving of defilement's occurring.

Therefore, the jhana of the jhana-newbie (once-returner) is obviously different to the jhana of an arahant.

It appears you assume that Sariputta was an arahant in MN 111. But that is not possible; given there remained fermentation (asava) in his mind.

While Sariputta clung to nothing from the 1st to 9th jhana; it is obvious the asava were not ended nor could be ended in the 1st jhana.
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 am
But he does so necessarily in the attainment of cessation. And the obvious point of going through all the jhanas - stating after each one that there is a further escape is to say that in cessation there is no further escape. Sariputta could have ended the fermentations in the first jhana and - according to your logic - that would end the escape. But that clearly contradicts the sutta.
I never ever implied the above. Please refrain from misrepresenting or imputing ideas to me. Thanks :thanks:
If Nibbana is the end of suffering, how is it that Arahants and Buddhas continue to suffer after destroying their asavas?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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