How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:48 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:13 pm
feelings are inconstant, you feel good, very good, lasting only a moment

then you feel miserable, very miserable, lasting only a moment
so this is the deep truth that we have overlooked for myriads of eons, this we could not see since the beginningless rounds of existence, don't be rediculous even a child understands this... It will be very hard to find someone who doesn't understand or accept this.
[ ] supramundane knowledge
[x] common knowledge

However you seem to have some difficulty accepting that there is something apart from what is impermanent so i don't know what to say really
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:28 pm
you don't achieve the goal via achieving the goal
yes you do achieve the goal by the means of achieving the goal... If you build a house you have built a house... If you achieve the goal you have achieved the goal...by building a house you build a house...

Just couple posts above i demonstrated how path leads to the deathless, how the same path leads to cessation of perception and feeling and i showed that it marks Stream-Entry. There is nothing more to say here. You said cessation of perception and feeling was not at all necessary and i posted an excerpt saying that this is not so and that it is crucial and there is no knowledge of destruction of taints without it.

You are free to believe what you want of course but i am not going to answer unless you say something pertaining to the discussion, i am not at all interested in a discussion if you are in denial about the points i am raising.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:13 pm

so this is the deep truth that we have overlooked for myriads of eons, this we could not see

you don't see it

rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:14 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:13 pm
so this is the deep truth that we have overlooked for myriads of eons, this we could not see
you don't see it
I was being sarcastic btw and I see that you are in denial about being refuted.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:29 pm

“Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all attachment to material form, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit of ’I am’.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:37 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:29 pm
“Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all attachment to material form, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit of ’I am’.
As i said you are not proving anything by this because;
62. Perceptions (2)

“Bhikkhus, these five perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are of great fruit and benefit, culminating in the deathless, having the deathless as their consummation. What five? The perception of impermanence, the perception of non-self, the perception of death, the perception of the repulsiveness of food, and the perception of non-delight in the entire world.
These five perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are of great fruit and benefit, culminating in the deathless, having the deathless as their consummation.”
Yes perception of impermanence is of great fruit and benefit, culminates in the deathless and eliminates all ignorance.

What you have to prove is that it does so without cessation of perception and feeling... because you are saying that it is not necessary but i have equated it to the attainment of the Deathless in which development of perception of impermanence cultivates.

What you are saying is that development of perception of impermanence leads to the final goal or Stream-Entry even if it is not brought to culmination.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:42 pm

everyone seems to seek annihilation

maybe they think only then will they not suffer

well nirvana isn't suffering, isn't annihilation either

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:51 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:42 pm
everyone seems to seek annihilation

maybe they think only then will they not suffer

well nirvana isn't suffering, isn't annihilation either
dude go ahead study and adress each of these sutta excerpts in a coherent manner as that is the proper way of dealing with the evidence presented to you in a discussion;
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:25 pm
cessation of perception and feeling is unnecessary

it's frosting
"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people. But when I did have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people.

"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.
[At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:]

"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers[2] comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.

"Regarding this knowledge of destruction, I declare that there is a supporting condition without which it does not arise...[3] What is this supporting condition? Liberation... Liberation has a supporting condition...: Dispassion... Dispassion has a supporting condition...: Disenchantment... Disenchantment has a supporting condition...: Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are...
"And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...

"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.
62. Perceptions (2)

“Bhikkhus, these five perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are of great fruit and benefit, culminating in the deathless, having the deathless as their consummation. What five? The perception of impermanence, the perception of non-self, the perception of death, the perception of the repulsiveness of food, and the perception of non-delight in the entire world.
These five perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are of great fruit and benefit, culminating in the deathless, having the deathless as their consummation.”
you know how many of these you have adressed so far? Zero, that is the strength of your argument.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:59 pm

concerning your quotes, I agree, however…

there is a tendency to think it means annihilation, somehow

in other words, misinterpretation happens

rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:24 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:59 pm
concerning your quotes, I agree, however…

there is a tendency to think it means annihilation, somehow

in other words, misinterpretation happens
Well i suspect that OP is a good example but he also denies the supramundane meditative attainment marking stream entry.

Annihilationists will say that Self has form, Self has consciousness etc
Like OP expressed here;
DooDoot wrote: If the Buddha did not have five aggregates, how did the Buddha walk, talk, eat, shit, see, hear and think?
"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: 'The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.
Except he thinks that this Annihilation occurs for an Arahant and non-Arahants are reborn until they become Arahants and then the self that has form is annihilated at the breakup of the body. Or perhaps he thinks that Delusion is self and when there is no Delusion there is no self and Arahant is annihilated at the breakup of the body. Something like this i assume.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:03 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
I will address your concerns tomorrow. You’re wrong on several fronts.
I think I was not wrong once but it was shown your posts were wrong several times. There is no need to address anything.
In fact, you highlighted “disenchantment” in my first post when the actual point was “comprehend”. So you were at fault there in two ways - one. You misinterpreted the passage. 2. You insulted me. Seems to be the way you argue.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
You’re an irritating person to talk with also. So excuse me if I don’t have a lot invested in that his conversation.
No. Your mind is irritated. :tantrum: Please speak the truth according to Buddhism. There is no "person". There are only sense objects and it is the mind that produces "personhood" and "irritation" from those sense objects.
No. In fact your method of arguing is like trying to prove to a twelve year old little boy that the earth isn’t flat. Your full of condescension and insults. That is not living in effacement.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
You’re understanding of “unconscious” is flawed. But we’ll discuss this at another time
There is no need to discuss anything. In DN 16, when the Buddha entered the cessation of perception & feeling, Ananda declared the Buddha has passed away. But Anurudha, with psychic powers, said no. Cessation of perception & feeling is compared to a corpse.
And it is also the highest escape as I will demonstrate shortly.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
An arahant is not always in Nibbana. I’ll give you sutta support for that at a later time
There is no sutta to support the above heretical view.
The Arahant

31. "And how, monks, is that monk one who has removed the cross-bar? Herein the monk has abandoned ignorance, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus has he removed the cross-bar.

32. "And how, monks, is that monk one who has filled the moat? Herein the monk has abandoned the round of [ego] births, leading to renewed becoming; he has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.

33. "And how has he broken the pillar? He has abandoned craving, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.

34. "And how has he unbolted (his mind)? He has abandoned the five lower fetters, has cut them off at the root, removed them from their soil like a palmyra tree, brought them to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.

35. "And how is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered? He has abandoned the conceit of self, has cut it off at the root, removed it from is soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered.

MN 22 :bow:
:alien:
What is the highest escape, DooDoot? Tell me this one thing.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
Your understanding of the defilements needs work. I’ll give you a quote tomorrow - but you’re looking at a hefty bill
No need to quote anything.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
You’re continually accused of misunderstanding consciousness and its relatiOn to cessation of perception and feeling because you’re wrong. f*** the world has demonstrated that with ample sutta support.
No.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
I will sleep now.
I sense the posts made were the product of sleep.
29. Heedful among the heedless, wide-awake among the sleepy, the wise man advances like a swift horse leaving behind a weak jade.

Dhammapada
Best wishes. :smile:
[/quote]

All right. Here is where you are defeated.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
His fermentation’s were totally ended and yet he still emerged from the attainment!
Sariputta reaches cessation - the highest escape. Cessation is Nibbana. There is no higher escape than Nibbana. Furthermore, he emerges from the attainment. The Arahant emerges from his final escape back into the world of perception.

So, what is the highest escape DooDoot? Nibbana or Cessation of perception and feeling?

Does an arahant live in Nibbana all the time? Or does he emerge from it? The passage above shows that he emerges from it.

There is a beautiful passage where the Buddha himself says “I abide in a certain state almost all the time.” When I track it down I will talk to you again. For now I have had enough of your conceit and insults. :)
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:55 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am
In fact, you highlighted “disenchantment” in my first post when the actual point was “comprehend”. So you were at fault there in two ways - one. You misinterpreted the passage.
No. Definitely no fault. Are you interested in Dhamma? Or are you interested in fault finding, ego defending & ego building? :roll:
2. You insulted me. Seems to be the way you argue.
All things are anatta. Only puthujjana feel insulted. Are you interested in Dhamma? Or are you interested in fault finding, ego defending & ego building?
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
No. In fact your method of arguing is like trying to prove to a twelve year old little boy that the earth isn’t flat. Your full of condescension and insults. That is not living in effacement.
So the above denies anatta.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
And it is also the highest escape as I will demonstrate shortly.
No. Without reading what is written later, this above is plainly wrong. Buddhism says Nibbana is the highest thing.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
What is the highest escape, DooDoot? Tell me this one thing.
Nibbana.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
All right. Here is where you are defeated.

The wise are beyond victory & defeat.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
Yes. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. Ending of asava = Nibbana. :smile:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
His fermentation’s were totally ended and yet he still emerged from the attainment! Sariputta reaches cessation - the highest escape. Cessation is Nibbana. There is no higher escape than Nibbana. Furthermore, he emerges from the attainment. The Arahant emerges from his final escape back into the world of perception.
What on earth is the above??? :?: :? :roll: The asava of an arahant are always destroyed. Any alternative view to this is confusion.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
So, what is the highest escape DooDoot? Nibbana or Cessation of perception and feeling?
Nibbana.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
Does an arahant live in Nibbana all the time? Or does he emerge from it? The passage above shows that he emerges from it.
The passage is about the emergence from cessation of perception and feeling. Its not about emergence from Nibbana.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
There is a beautiful passage where the Buddha himself says “I abide in a certain state almost all the time.” When I track it down I will talk to you again. For now I have had enough of your conceit and insults.
No. Best to stop posting confusion. Everything posted appears to be wrong.
184. "Nibbana is supreme," say the Buddhas.

Dhammapada
"His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Nibbana — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Nibbana, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.

MN 140
"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Nibanna. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

MN 26

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:23 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am
There is a beautiful passage where the Buddha himself says “I abide in a certain state almost all the time.” When I track it down I will talk to you again. For now I have had enough of your conceit and insults.
Please. Enough ridiculousness. There is obviously no passage that says the Buddha abides in Nirodha Samapatti almost all of the time. :roll:
Sāriputta, your faculties are so very clear, and your complexion is pure and bright. What kind of meditation are you usually practicing these days?” “Sir, these days I usually practice the meditation on emptiness.” “Good, good, Sāriputta! It seems you usually practice the meditation of a great man. For emptiness is the meditation of a great man.

https://suttacentral.net/mn151/en/sujato
Bhikkhus, I have been dwelling in part of the abode in which I dwelt just after I became fully enlightened. I have understood thus: ‘There is feeling with wrong view as condition, also feeling with right view as condition…. There is feeling with wrong concentration as condition, also feeling with right concentration as condition. There is feeling with desire as condition, also feeling with thought as condition, also feeling with perception as condition

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.12/en/bodhi
‘Reverends, the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence was immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn54.11/en/sujato
Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind (animitta cetosamadhi) that his body is more comfortable.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fn-19

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:35 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 am
What is the highest escape, DooDoot? Tell me this one thing.
The suttas appear to clearly say Nirodha Samapatti is not the highest. For example:
There Venerable Sāriputta addressed the mendicants: … “Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

That is possible.

If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain group of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.166/en/sujato

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:40 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:27 am
It is more and more clear to me that there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work on part of OP;
DooDoot wrote: If the Buddha did not have five aggregates, how did the Buddha walk, talk, eat, shit, see, hear and think? :shrug:
Here he clearly postulates that The Buddha has the Aggregates, postulating an entity apart from Aggregates which is of course wrong view because existence of a being cannot be pinned down neither apart nor in the aggregates. Has the aggregates or doesn't have the aggregates does not apply.

Foolish man, where did you ever see the Aggregates to be taught in this way by the Tathagata?
Oh dear. Another Dhamma lesson to give to the mind that IMAGINES things when reading suttas; a mind without grounding in the basics. :mrgreen:


"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"
The above says the Buddha (Enlightenment) is not any of the aggregates (because Buddha is the Dhamma or Truth). However, it does not say Gotama (as a lifeform) has no aggregates. Oh dear. :roll:
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."
:strawman: :jedi:
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfying. That which is unsatisfying has ceased and gone to its end."

"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

SN 22.85
Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

SN 22.87
:lol: :roll: :mrgreen: :thanks: :pig: :focus:

Dinsdale
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:11 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:37 pm
What you have to prove is that it does so without cessation of perception and feeling... because you are saying that it is not necessary but i have equated it to the attainment of the Deathless in which development of perception of impermanence cultivates.
Are you talking about cessation of perception and feeling as a meditative attainment, or as a permanent state? I assume you mean the former, since we couldn't function without sanna which is the ability to recognise stuff.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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