How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:02 pm

Dhammapada;
203. Jighacchāparamā rogā saṅkhāraparamā dukhā
Etaṃ ñatvā yathābhūtaṃ nibbāṇaparamaṃ sukhaṃ.

203
Hunger is the primary disease; conditioned phenomena, the primary suffering. Having seen the truth of this, Nibbana becomes the primary happiness.
Nibbana the unconditioned element = Primary Happiness, Unchanging, Unmade, the Highest Bliss.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
3. Therefore, when non-Aryians read AN 9.34, because a non-Aryian has not tasted the freedom of Nibbana, they might believe Nibbana is the Cessation of Perception & Feeling (which is a state of unconsciousness; compared to a corpse in MN 43 ).
MN 43
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
because the suttas define Nibbana as: "the destruction of craving".
not exactly accurate is it
Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Destruction and letting go of craving for what is Dukkha (ie feeling) leads to Cessation of Dukkha and realization of the Unmade Element;
"And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And where, when being abandoned, is this craving abandoned? And where, when ceasing, does it cease? Whatever seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world: that is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"And what seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world? The eye seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.
Realization of cessation is achieved by letting of the craving for Sankhara.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm

Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
pleasure is felt

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:32 pm

with Doot's view parinibbana would be nothing but complete and utter annihilation, non-existence rather than non-existence of conditioned phenomena, teaching non-existence of the unmade essentially i assume.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:50 pm

Well to be accurate Nibbana =/= The Unconditioned Element however Realization of Nibbana means consequent realization of the Cessation/Unbinding of The Conditioned Phenomena (Nama&Rupa) and therefore realization of the Unconditioned Element which is not Dukkha nor Anicca and furthermore is reasonably equated to Vinnana Anidassanam.
So you are also in disagreement with Commentary to MN 49 as well;
Vinnana Anidassanam;
Consciousness without surface (viññanam anidassanam): This term appears to be related to the following image from SN 12.64:

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

In other words, normal sensory consciousness is experienced because it has a "surface" against which it lands: the sense organs and their objects, which constitute the "all." For instance, we experience visual consciousness because of the eye and forms of which we are conscious. Consciousness without surface, however, is directly known, without intermediary, free from any dependence on conditions at all.

This consciousness thus differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. And, as SN 35.23 notes, the word "all" in the Buddha's teaching covers only the six sense media, which is another reason for not including this consciousness under the aggregates. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud I.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud VIII.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time.

Some have objected to the equation of this consciousness with nibbana, on the grounds that nibbana is nowhere else in the Canon described as a form of consciousness. Thus they have proposed that consciousness without surface be regarded as an arahant's consciousness of nibbana in meditative experience, and not nibbana itself. This argument, however, contains a flaw: If nibbana is an object of mental consciousness (as a dhamma), it would come under the all, as an object of the intellect. There are passages in the Canon (such as AN 9.36) that describe meditators experiencing nibbana as a dhamma, but these passages seem to indicate that this description applies up through the level of non-returning. Other passages, however, describe nibbana as the ending of all dhammas. For instance, Sn V.6 quotes the Buddha as calling the attainment of the goal the transcending of all dhammas. Sn IV.6 and Sn IV.10 state that the arahant has transcended dispassion, said to be the highest dhamma. Thus, for the arahant, nibbana is not an object of consciousness. Instead it is directly known without mediation. Because consciousness without feature is directly known without mediation, there seems good reason to equate the two.
And more for you refering to supramundane attainment of the Noble Ones;
AN 10.07;

Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

So you have to explain not only pleasure when nothing is felt, you also have to explain perception where there is no perception :)

You are basically in disagreement with the orthodox notion of the Supramundane Jhana in general and the Abhidhamma as i understand it.
I won't quote from the Abhidhamma because i have not studied it extensively but here is from someone who seemingly has;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... 1.html#ch5
Fundamental to the discussion in this chapter is a distinction between two terms crucial to Theravada philosophical exposition, "mundane" (lokiya) and "supramundane" (lokuttara). The term "mundane" applies to all phenomena comprised in the world (loka) — to subtle states of consciousness as well as matter, to virtue as well as evil, to meditative attainments as well as sensual engrossments. The term "supramundane," in contrast, applies exclusively to that which transcends the world, that is the nine supramundane states: Nibbana, the four noble paths (magga) leading to Nibbana, and their corresponding fruits (phala) which experience the bliss of Nibbana.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:56 pm

the way you explain nibbana as mere destruction of craving even a child can understand and anybody who gave up smoking has realized, what is the nobility in that :shrug:

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
Nibbana is not pleasant because it is felt.
err

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:27 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
3. Therefore, when non-Aryians read AN 9.34, because a non-Aryian has not tasted the freedom of Nibbana, they might believe Nibbana is the Cessation of Perception & Feeling (which is a state of unconsciousness; compared to a corpse in MN 43 ).
MN 43
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
because the suttas define Nibbana as: "the destruction of craving".
not exactly accurate is it
Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Destruction and letting go of craving for what is Dukkha (ie feeling) leads to Cessation of Dukkha and realization of the Unmade Element;
"And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And where, when being abandoned, is this craving abandoned? And where, when ceasing, does it cease? Whatever seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world: that is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"And what seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world? The eye seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.
Realization of cessation is achieved by letting of the craving for Sankhara.
Thank you rightviewftw

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:18 pm

here just for the record anther Sutta excerpt pertaining to the supramundane meditative attainment of cessation;
"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.

"Absorbed in this way, the excellent thoroughbred of a man is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
This is why attainment of cessation is better than Celestial existence and even being the Brahma because Gods and Devas are not Ariya for they know not the Unmade and the path to cesastion of the Made, the path that is only available to the disciples of the Buddhas.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm
MN 43... he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
No. The sutta defines the "faculties" as the physical five sense organs. Thus in Nirodha-Samapatti, the sense organs are exceptionally purified but they are not conscious. Since the immaterial jhana that lead to Nirodha-Samapatti are only the mind sense base; how can the five physical sense organs function in Nirodha Samapatti? Again, you are clinging to English words & imagining things in suttas that are not there. :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:02 pm
Nibbana the unconditioned element = Primary Happiness, Unchanging, Unmade, the Highest Bliss.
Your view about AN 9.34 was definitely a wrong view. Misquoting more suttas won't change this wrong view. The unconditioned element is defined as the absence of defilement (rather than the absence of feeling).
And what is the unconditioned?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 43.12
What is the deathless?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 45.7
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:55 pm
It is not merely non-attachment
Irrelevant & false speech. I already posted that Nibbana is described in many ways, such as:

1. Destruction of craving.

2. Non-attachment, disenchantment, dispassion, etc.

3. Ending of the asava (of sensuality, becoming, ignorance).

4. Ending/destruction of greed, hatred & delusion

Nibbana is only these things. Nibbana is not:

1. Cessation of perception & feeling

2. Consciousness without feature.

That's it. The wrong view that AN 9.34 says Nibbana is the cessation of feeling is a wrong view. :pig: :strawman: :jedi:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm
Nibbana is not Consciousness without feature.
err

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:08 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:07 pm
err
No. Even monks like Bhikkhu Sujato say it is not Nibbana.
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:07 pm
err
No. Please read the thread rather than spam it.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:13 pm

the err is annihilation ism

whether criticized in brief or at length, you still think so
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:14 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 pm
then I see why you err
No. I do not err. Sujato does not err.

Consciousness without feature is spoken twice (MN 49 & DN 11) to Brahmans, neither of whom attain enlightenment.

In Buddhism, nama-rupa and consciousness arise & cease together.

But in MN 49 and DN 11, consciousness arises but nama-rupa ceases.

This is because MN 49 and DN 11 use nama-rupa as found in the Vedas.

In MN 49 and DN 11, Brahmas are being taught Brahmanism and not Buddhism.

I do not err. Sujato does not err.
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:13 pm
the err is annihilation ism

whether criticized in brief or at length, you still think so
No. annihilationism is a self-view rather than the ending of consciousness. I will now place you on ignore because you keep posting that same wrong views and when you are corrected with the suttas you deliberately choose to ignore those suttas.

It seem you don't have a deep interest in the suttas but only your own created ideas.

At least rightviewftw has an interest in the suttas and is fun to debate with.

:anjali: :focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:18 pm

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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