Perhaps more a concept. I conceive of the mind as the "space" where thoughts and feelings arise.
If mind = brain
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Re: If mind = brain
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If mind = brain
If the meaning of words(such as 4NT 8FP kamma rebirth) is not what they stand for , what are you practicing then ?!
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Re: If mind = brain
The Buddha knows.
Yes there is.There is no consensus on the definition of namarupa .
You are making a false distinction. How can you have sensation/perception without consciousness?The OP is , if brain = mind ,
Not brain = consciousness .
I am enquiring about sense bases , mind .
Consciousness normally used in the khandhas context .
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.
Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.
Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.
Re: If mind = brain
I understand it as a simile , but , we have to be more specific , what do you think ?
You always gain by giving
Re: If mind = brain
The Buddha knows , but , if you know do elaborate .Grigoris wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 amThe Buddha knows.Yes there is.There is no consensus on the definition of namarupa .You are making a false distinction. How can you have sensation/perception without consciousness?The OP is , if brain = mind ,
Not brain = consciousness .
I am enquiring about sense bases , mind .
Consciousness normally used in the khandhas context .
You always gain by giving
Re: If mind = brain
If they are what they stand for, then enlightenment would be found in them, but the Buddha likened them to a raft, something to be used.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: If mind = brain
A space seem to be a necessary condition for experience to arise, but not a sufficient one. For a space to be re-cognized, it needs something else.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: If mind = brain
If such is the case , relatively , the words still stand for what it represents .
You always gain by giving
Re: If mind = brain
I think the reality here is that the OP really wants to equate self and mind. Which, I think, is fine - until you ask; is there a Self in Nibbāna? A couple fragments from the Udana Sutta might help. First:
Again knowledge and vision are properties of the mind and release is the knowledge and the vision. The monk declares; “I have found you - architect of this body! No more will you construct further kamma out of volition!”
So, Mind is Self. But not quite. A full reading of the Potthapada sutta is recommended.
So, instead of badgering over a lack of consensus as to what “namarupa” means - we can just say that consciousness is a skhanda and does not stand on its own - it stands on the other skhandas. Next:“There is the case, monk, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person—who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma—assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.
“He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.
So, what is the nature of release and what is the nature of discernment? Release is a property of Nibbāna and discernment is a property of Mind. Thus, there is only “release” and “knowledge and vision of release” - to paraphrase the very useful Kimattha Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html“If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to release, it is steady. Owing to steadiness, it is contented. Owing to contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’
Again knowledge and vision are properties of the mind and release is the knowledge and the vision. The monk declares; “I have found you - architect of this body! No more will you construct further kamma out of volition!”
So, Mind is Self. But not quite. A full reading of the Potthapada sutta is recommended.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"In the same way, when there is a gross acquisition of a self... it's classified just as a gross acquisition of a self. When there is a mind-made acquisition of a self... When there is a formless acquisition of a self, it's not classified either as a gross acquisition of a self or as a mind-made acquisition of a self. It's classified just as a formless acquisition of a self.
"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: If mind = brain
If you only limit the definition of matter to immaterial objects then you are right. But a lot of matter is in the form of signals, waves, energy and these are measurable. You cannot separate thoughts from what they are connected to. This is a complex subject and not really relevant to mind=brain, which I don't agree with. The human being is an organism. The organism works due to the conjunction of many different processes sharing information at lightning speeds. You cannot isolate anything in the human organism without dysfunction.
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Re: If mind = brain
The suttas do distinguish between between physical and mental, for example with feeling ( vedana ):Saengnapha wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:47 amIf you only limit the definition of matter to immaterial objects then you are right. But a lot of matter is in the form of signals, waves, energy and these are measurable. You cannot separate thoughts from what they are connected to. This is a complex subject and not really relevant to mind=brain, which I don't agree with. The human being is an organism. The organism works due to the conjunction of many different processes sharing information at lightning speeds. You cannot isolate anything in the human organism without dysfunction.
“And what, bhikkhus, are the two kinds of feelings? Bodily and mental. These are called the two kinds of feelings."
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.22/en/bodhi
This distinction is important in the Arrow Sutta:
"When an educated noble disciple experiences painful physical feelings they don’t sorrow or pine or lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. They experience one feeling: physical, not mental."
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/sujato
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Re: If mind = brain
Sorry, I'm not following you. You mean stuff going on "outside" the space?
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Re: If mind = brain
Mind is not brain, but mind needs (a) brain.James Tan wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 amI understand it as a simile , but , we have to be more specific , what do you think ?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: If mind = brain
Hi dinsdale , where is the mind ? What is the mind ?
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Re: If mind = brain
You said that you conceive the mind as the "space" where thoughts and feelings arise. I said that space is necessary for experience to arise. For example, why the eye cannot see itself? because there is no space between the eye and itself! Same thing can be said about other sense media.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 8:55 amSorry, I'm not following you. You mean stuff going on "outside" the space?
When we speak of the mind, we usually refer to the knowing faculty. For knowing to arise, there must be the known. What separates the knowing from the known is that space you are referring to.
Consequently, the mind cannot be known directly and in that sense not different from any other sense media. It can be known retrospectively "as a thought" similar to a sound, sight, bodily sensation, taste ...etc
If you are following my logic, the word "mind" does not convey something original, but its a thought (memory/image) arising due to the presence of particular stimuli which triggers it
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.