can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Saengnapha
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 13, 2018 11:10 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:51 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:44 am
This is not my issue. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just making some observations and stating them. If there is something in particular that you want to ask me about, I don't mind. Just don't put your words into my mouth. :D
You have frequently said that practice is not required for insight, which you yourself have had, and which holds good for all. (Copious quotes supplied on demand...) I'm not asking for anything in particular, just pointing out the contradictions in this position.
What contradiction do you see?

binocular
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by binocular » Sun May 13, 2018 11:12 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:51 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:44 am
This is not my issue. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just making some observations and stating them. If there is something in particular that you want to ask me about, I don't mind. Just don't put your words into my mouth.
You have frequently said that practice is not required for insight, which you yourself have had, and which holds good for all. (Copious quotes supplied on demand...) I'm not asking for anything in particular, just pointing out the contradictions in this position.
And that's why it would help if religious/spiritual people would first work on converting, or eliminating, eachother, until only one is left, and then the view held by that last one standing will be The Truth and everyone will have no choice but to see things that way as well.

:guns:

Saengnapha
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 13, 2018 11:15 am

binocular wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:12 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:51 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:44 am
This is not my issue. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just making some observations and stating them. If there is something in particular that you want to ask me about, I don't mind. Just don't put your words into my mouth.
You have frequently said that practice is not required for insight, which you yourself have had, and which holds good for all. (Copious quotes supplied on demand...) I'm not asking for anything in particular, just pointing out the contradictions in this position.
And that's why it would help if religious/spiritual people would first work on converting, or eliminating, eachother, until only one is left, and then the view held by that last one standing will be The Truth and everyone will have no choice but to see things that way as well.

:guns:
But this is a pipe dream, no? Negation takes care of all of this, including one's own view.

binocular
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by binocular » Sun May 13, 2018 11:18 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:10 am
What contradiction do you see?
To someone who doesn't hold your views (although you probably wouldn't call them "views"), what you teach (although you probably wouldn't call it "teaching") is just one out of many things that various religious people teach, one out of many religious or spiritual options that seem available to someone who does not yet subscribe to any one of them.

You will probably say that what you're saying isn't just one of many options, but The Truth.

Ironically, pretty much every spiritual path or religion says the same thing about themselves. But this is a potential problem of religious/spiritual choice that only someone outside of a particular spiritual path or religion faces.

binocular
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by binocular » Sun May 13, 2018 11:23 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:15 am
But this is a pipe dream, no?
The pipe dream is hoping for empathy from religious/spiritual people.
Negation takes care of all of this, including one's own view.
Image

Saengnapha
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 13, 2018 2:37 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:18 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:10 am
What contradiction do you see?
To someone who doesn't hold your views (although you probably wouldn't call them "views"), what you teach (although you probably wouldn't call it "teaching") is just one out of many things that various religious people teach, one out of many religious or spiritual options that seem available to someone who does not yet subscribe to any one of them.

You will probably say that what you're saying isn't just one of many options, but The Truth.

Ironically, pretty much every spiritual path or religion says the same thing about themselves. But this is a potential problem of religious/spiritual choice that only someone outside of a particular spiritual path or religion faces.
Have I ever said that what I say is The Truth? I don't think so. Are you referring to any particular view that I've mentioned? I also hold that nothing that I've ever said was unique and new and different from what others may have thought. How could it be? Everything that we think is already thunk. This is the only point I've been trying to make but somehow the Buddhist one that people here adhere to is the correct one. :rolleye:

Saengnapha
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 13, 2018 2:39 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:23 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:15 am
But this is a pipe dream, no?
The pipe dream is hoping for empathy from religious/spiritual people.
Negation takes care of all of this, including one's own view.
Image
I'm not hoping for empathy, not here, at least.

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Sam Vara
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 13, 2018 2:52 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:10 am
What contradiction do you see?
The main one is that the factors which you claim vitiate the Buddha's teaching also apply to everything you claim, thereby undermining that as well.

Saengnapha
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:52 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:10 am
What contradiction do you see?
The main one is that the factors which you claim vitiate the Buddha's teaching also apply to everything you claim, thereby undermining that as well.
You will have to be much more specific about what you are referring to in order for me to understand what you are trying to say.

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Sam Vara
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 13, 2018 3:22 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:52 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:10 am
What contradiction do you see?
The main one is that the factors which you claim vitiate the Buddha's teaching also apply to everything you claim, thereby undermining that as well.
You will have to be much more specific about what you are referring to in order for me to understand what you are trying to say.
Sure. One way is via your claim that we mustn't accept or believe anything that we do not directly observe or examine. If we accept that, it undermines your claim that insight can take place, and that you have attained it. Why should we pay any attention to a claim about something that we have not directly observed? If you really believed the former, you wouldn't post the latter.

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cappuccino
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:39 am
tongue
Faith is called "the seed," and without it the plant of spiritual life cannot start at all.

Saengnapha
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:22 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:52 pm


The main one is that the factors which you claim vitiate the Buddha's teaching also apply to everything you claim, thereby undermining that as well.
You will have to be much more specific about what you are referring to in order for me to understand what you are trying to say.
Sure. One way is via your claim that we mustn't accept or believe anything that we do not directly observe or examine. If we accept that, it undermines your claim that insight can take place, and that you have attained it. Why should we pay any attention to a claim about something that we have not directly observed? If you really believed the former, you wouldn't post the latter.
How does this undermine my claim that insight can take place? BTW, it is not an attainment as you keep thinking. I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. Is that possible, sir? I have addressed this several times but you keep insisting on the same response. Put your attention on your own experience and see if you are a product of belief or not. Everything you know, is of the past and learned, conditioned, dead imagery. Seeing this is insight. It is not conditioned because there is no action against what is, the conditioned. If you don't see this, the conversation ends as there is nothing more to talk about. You will just go off in another direction and repeat the same questions. If you do see this, the questions end.

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Grigoris
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 13, 2018 4:16 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:12 am
And that's why it would help if religious/spiritual people would first work on converting, or eliminating, eachother, until only one is left, and then the view held by that last one standing will be The Truth and everyone will have no choice but to see things that way as well.

:guns:
Religious practice is not a competition.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 13, 2018 4:59 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:22 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm

You will have to be much more specific about what you are referring to in order for me to understand what you are trying to say.
Sure. One way is via your claim that we mustn't accept or believe anything that we do not directly observe or examine. If we accept that, it undermines your claim that insight can take place, and that you have attained it. Why should we pay any attention to a claim about something that we have not directly observed? If you really believed the former, you wouldn't post the latter.
How does this undermine my claim that insight can take place?
Because there is no reason to believe it if we have not directly observed or examined it. Your criterion for what we can accept or believe rules it out.

binocular
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

Post by binocular » Sun May 13, 2018 5:53 pm

grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:16 pm
Religious practice is not a competition.
Life is a competition.

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