Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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DooDoot
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:53 am
So Sarakaani the Sakyan was not a Buddhist while he was drinking then?
My recollection of the sutta is it does not explicitly say Sarakaani attained stream-entry when he was a heavy drinker or, otherwise, during a time afterwards when he gave drinking. Reading again, it merely says: "Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death."
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Sroberto
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sroberto » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:53 am
Sroberto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:17 pm
This is exactly what i am talking about...

So a monk who breaks any precept is not a Buddhist?


So a monk who breaks any precept is not a Buddhist?

There is nothing about "any" in the question. Specifically, drinking alcohol.

The question as worded implies continual or ongoing consumption of alcohol, not a lapse or one time occurance. Drink, infinitive. Regular drinking alcohol as an intentional act, by a monk, would definately make that monk not a buddhist.

If you are still unsure imagine walking by a wine bar and seeing two monks inside drinking Viognier and Merlot. Would you say, there are two buddist monks? Or would you say, how can they call themselves buddhist monks?
So Sarakaani the Sakyan was not a Buddhist while he was drinking then?
Correct.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:27 am

Sroberto wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:53 am
Sroberto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 am




So a monk who breaks any precept is not a Buddhist?

There is nothing about "any" in the question. Specifically, drinking alcohol.

The question as worded implies continual or ongoing consumption of alcohol, not a lapse or one time occurance. Drink, infinitive. Regular drinking alcohol as an intentional act, by a monk, would definately make that monk not a buddhist.

If you are still unsure imagine walking by a wine bar and seeing two monks inside drinking Viognier and Merlot. Would you say, there are two buddist monks? Or would you say, how can they call themselves buddhist monks?
So Sarakaani the Sakyan was not a Buddhist while he was drinking then?
Correct.
What about Ven. Sagata?
"Then Ven. Sagata went to the hermitage of the coiled-hair ascetic of Ambatittha, and on arrival — having entered the fire building and arranged a grass mat — sat down cross-legged with his body erect and mindfulness to the fore. The naga (living in the fire building) saw that Ven. Sagata had entered and, on seeing him, was upset, disgruntled, and emitted smoke. Ven. Sagata emitted smoke. The naga, unable to bear his rage, blazed up. Ven. Sagata, entering the fire element, blazed up. Then Ven. Sagata, having consumed the naga's fire with his own fire, left for Bhaddavatika.

"Then the Blessed One, having stayed at Bhaddavatika as long as he liked, left on a walking tour to Kosambi. The lay followers of Kosambi heard, 'They say that Ven. Sagata did battle with the Ambatittha naga!'

"Then the Blessed One, having toured by stages, came to Kosambi. The Kosambi lay followers, after welcoming the Blessed One, went to Ven. Sagata and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there they said to him, 'What, venerable sir, is something the masters like that is hard for you to get? What can we prepare for you?'

"When this was said, some group-of-six bhikkhus said to the Kosambi lay followers, 'Friends, there is a strong liquor called pigeon's liquor (the color of pigeons' feet, according to the Commentary) that the bhikkhus like and is hard for them to get. Prepare that.'

"Then the Kosambi lay followers, having prepared pigeon's liquor in house after house, and seeing that Ven. Sagata had gone out for alms, said to him, 'Master Sagata, drink some pigeon's liquor! Master Sagata, drink some pigeon's liquor' Then Ven. Sagata, having drunk pigeon's liquor in house after house, passed out at the city gate as he was leaving the city.

"Then the Blessed One, leaving the city with a number of bhikkhus, saw that Ven. Sagata had passed out at the city gate. On seeing him, he addressed the bhikkhus, saying, 'Bhikkhus, pick up Sagata.'

"Responding, 'As you say, venerable sir,' the bhikkhus took Ven. Sagata to the monastery and laid him down with his head toward the Blessed One. Then Ven. Sagata turned around and went to sleep with his feet toward the Blessed One. So the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying, 'In the past, wasn't Sagata respectful to the Tathagata and deferential?'

"'Yes, venerable sir.'

"'But is he respectful to the Tathagata and deferential now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'

"'And didn't Sagata do battle with the Ambatittha naga?'

"'Yes, venerable sir.'

"'But could he do battle with even a salamander now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'"

Sroberto
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sroberto » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:28 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:27 am
Sroberto wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:53 am


So Sarakaani the Sakyan was not a Buddhist while he was drinking then?
Correct.
What about Ven. Sagata?
"Then Ven. Sagata went to the hermitage of the coiled-hair ascetic of Ambatittha, and on arrival — having entered the fire building and arranged a grass mat — sat down cross-legged with his body erect and mindfulness to the fore. The naga (living in the fire building) saw that Ven. Sagata had entered and, on seeing him, was upset, disgruntled, and emitted smoke. Ven. Sagata emitted smoke. The naga, unable to bear his rage, blazed up. Ven. Sagata, entering the fire element, blazed up. Then Ven. Sagata, having consumed the naga's fire with his own fire, left for Bhaddavatika.

"Then the Blessed One, having stayed at Bhaddavatika as long as he liked, left on a walking tour to Kosambi. The lay followers of Kosambi heard, 'They say that Ven. Sagata did battle with the Ambatittha naga!'

"Then the Blessed One, having toured by stages, came to Kosambi. The Kosambi lay followers, after welcoming the Blessed One, went to Ven. Sagata and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there they said to him, 'What, venerable sir, is something the masters like that is hard for you to get? What can we prepare for you?'

"When this was said, some group-of-six bhikkhus said to the Kosambi lay followers, 'Friends, there is a strong liquor called pigeon's liquor (the color of pigeons' feet, according to the Commentary) that the bhikkhus like and is hard for them to get. Prepare that.'

"Then the Kosambi lay followers, having prepared pigeon's liquor in house after house, and seeing that Ven. Sagata had gone out for alms, said to him, 'Master Sagata, drink some pigeon's liquor! Master Sagata, drink some pigeon's liquor' Then Ven. Sagata, having drunk pigeon's liquor in house after house, passed out at the city gate as he was leaving the city.

"Then the Blessed One, leaving the city with a number of bhikkhus, saw that Ven. Sagata had passed out at the city gate. On seeing him, he addressed the bhikkhus, saying, 'Bhikkhus, pick up Sagata.'

"Responding, 'As you say, venerable sir,' the bhikkhus took Ven. Sagata to the monastery and laid him down with his head toward the Blessed One. Then Ven. Sagata turned around and went to sleep with his feet toward the Blessed One. So the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying, 'In the past, wasn't Sagata respectful to the Tathagata and deferential?'

"'Yes, venerable sir.'

"'But is he respectful to the Tathagata and deferential now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'

"'And didn't Sagata do battle with the Ambatittha naga?'

"'Yes, venerable sir.'

"'But could he do battle with even a salamander now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'"

You seem much more interested in your questions than you do in my answers; I find that very rude. It is clear to me that if you choose to continuously drink alcohol you are not a buddhist. I really have nothing more to add beyond that.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:37 am

Sroberto wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:28 am
You seem much more interested in your questions than you do in my answers; I find that very rude. It is clear to me that if you choose to continuously drink alcohol you are not a buddhist. I really have nothing more to add beyond that.
I find it incredibly rude that you revile Ven. Sarakaani the Sakyan, Ven. Sagata and other monks as well as lay-practitioners who ever took to drink based on what seems to be an incredibly absurd and simplistic misunderstanding of what is The Faith Faculty, what is a Precept and what it means to take a Refuge.

As far as i am concerned you have demonstrated fixation in view, an unbeliveable willingness to defend an uneducated opinion and attachment to mere moral observances.

I did not answer your counter-questions because we were discussing your quite offensive statement;
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:15 pm
Buddhist = person who keeps precepts
Precepts = do not drink alcobol

Therefore, a Buddhist does not drink alcohol. To be a buddhist one takes refuge in the triple gem and undertakes the precepts. This makes one a buddhist. One does not get to intentionally pick and choose. The precept says not to intentionally drink alcohol. If you intentionally choose to drink alcohol as a matter of personal practice, then, by definition, you are not a buddhist.
The only question i ignored was a question requiring a long analytical explaination of my position
Sroberto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 am
Would you say, there are two buddist monks? Or would you say, how can they call themselves buddhist monks?
a question irrelevant to the discussion of the validity of your position;
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:15 pm
If you intentionally choose to drink alcohol as a matter of personal practice, then, by definition, you are not a buddhist.
For which you have no support in the Tipitaka.
When questioned on the matter and confronted with the Sarakaani Sutta, you double down on it and make up an explaination that has no support in neither the commentaries nor the Tipitaka;
Sroberto wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:53 am
So Sarakaani the Sakyan was not a Buddhist while he was drinking then?
Correct.
When further confronted with the Vinaya story of the Ven. Sagata and the origination of the monastic rule you are claiming victim-hood and avoiding the question.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:08 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:37 am
I find it incredibly rude that you revile Ven. Sarakaani the Sakyan, Ven. Sagata and other monks as well as lay-practitioners who ever took to drink based on what seems to be an incredibly absurd and simplistic misunderstanding of what is The Faith Faculty, what is a Precept and what it means to take a Refuge.
What on earth is posted above??? The Buddha said Sagata was not respectful (was not faithful) to the Tathagata.
So the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying, 'In the past, wasn't Sagata respectful to the Tathagata and deferential?'

"'Yes, venerable sir.'

"'But is he respectful to the Tathagata and deferential now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'


"'And didn't Sagata do battle with the Ambatittha naga?'

"'Yes, venerable sir.'

"'But could he do battle with even a salamander now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'"
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:08 am
You seem to like coloring, you should check out coloring books instead of trying to follow the sequence of ideas expressed during a connected discourse.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:17 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:37 am
For which you have no support in the Tipitaka.
:roll:
(3) "What are the six channels for dissipating wealth which he does not pursue?

(a) "indulgence in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness;

Dice, women, liquor, dancing, singing, sleeping by day, sauntering at unseemly hours, evil companions, avarice — these nine causes ruin a man.

DN 31
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:37 am
your quite offensive statement
Lol... Feminists, lefties and other weak minded people find things "offensive"; just as the Buddha said:
"'But could he do battle with even a salamander now?'

"'No, venerable sir.'"

:rofl:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:53 am

I made a minor mistake in quoting him;
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:15 pm
If you intentionally choose to drink alcohol as a matter of personal practice, then, by definition, you are not a buddhist.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:17 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:37 am
For which you have no support in the Tipitaka.
:roll:
(3) "What are the six channels for dissipating wealth which he does not pursue?

(a) "indulgence in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness;

Dice, women, liquor, dancing, singing, sleeping by day, sauntering at unseemly hours, evil companions, avarice — these nine causes ruin a man.

DN 31
your right that exact excerpt of his statement can be defended by the above quote. however the full quote and context was;
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:15 pm
Buddhist = person who keeps precepts
Precepts = do not drink alcobol

Therefore, a Buddhist does not drink alcohol. To be a buddhist one takes refuge in the triple gem and undertakes the precepts. This makes one a buddhist. One does not get to intentionally pick and choose. The precept says not to intentionally drink alcohol. If you intentionally choose to drink alcohol as a matter of personal practice, then, by definition, you are not a buddhist.
I think Sarakaani Sutta and the Vinaya Story of Ven. Sagata prove that a Buddhist can drink, it can happen and keeping precepts does not make or break a Buddhist. To say that they somehow are not Buddhists when they drink makes no sense. Ven. Sagata was a fully ordained Bhikkhu under the Buddha before he consumed that alcohol, to say that he was not a Buddhist when he is drinking is just rediculous.

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DooDoot
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:22 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:53 am
Buddhist
Maybe the identitarian term 'Buddhist' needs to be defined?
Sroberto wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:28 am
It is clear to me that if you choose to continuously drink alcohol you are not a buddhist. I really have nothing more to add beyond that.
To avoid arguments with identitarians, I would simply say if you choose to continuously drink alcohol you are not practising the buddhist path.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:22 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:53 am
Buddhist
Maybe the identitarian term 'Buddhist' needs to be defined?
Sroberto wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:28 am
It is clear to me that if you choose to continuously drink alcohol you are not a buddhist. I really have nothing more to add beyond that.
To avoid arguments with identitarians, I would simply say if you choose to continuously drink alcohol you are not practising the buddhist path.
I more or less agree, when a person thinks about drinking, arranges drinking and is drinking, he is going the wrong way. Same with any other immoral behavior.

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DooDoot
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:52 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:31 am
I more or less agree
:hug: :group: :heart:
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TRobinson465
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:44 am

You can be a Buddhist and do anything.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:47 am

If you want to be a practicing Buddhist who keeps the five precepts is another question though. It would still be a violation of the 5th precept. but I personally dont think breaking one of the precepts disqualifies you as a Buddhist. I know plenty of Buddhists who drink. but they practice and beleive in Buddhism and still recognize what thier doing is against the path so i wouldnt disqualify them as a Buddhist.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:54 am

Just to be clear. I do not drink. But i don't define Buddhist as having to keep all the precepts diligently (even though i try to myself). If you believe in what the Buddha says, kamma, rebirth, 8 fold path and whatnot but kill ants or drinks every once in a while i would still say you are buddhist (albeit one that needs to improve his/her training).
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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