Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by Zom » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 am

Split from this Classical Theravada thread: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31737#p468800 mikenz66
Vinnana is a limb of DO. This vinnana has the bases of 5 aggregates. But vinnanam anidassansm is beyond DO as it means Consciouness without surface or without features.
Vinnanam anidassanam is just a clean, jhanic, 100% defilement-free arahant's consciousness, which can be called "nibbana with a residue", because this is a state of consciousness, when greed, hatred and delustion are destroyed (as explained by Ven. Sariputta in SN 38.1). However, as any kind of consciousness, it is as impermanent as all other arahant's khandhas. Upon arahant's death this Vinnanam anidassanam ceases, stops to exist, and the final line of those verses which speak about this consciousness directly says that.

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Vinnanam Anidassanam - General Theravada Version

Post by santa100 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Regarding the idea that Vinnanam Anidassanam as being equated to Nibbana, Ven. Thanissaro is not alone in questioning it. Ven. Bodhi's lengthy note in "Middle Length Discourses" says:
In the first edition, I retained Ñm’s own translation of these lines, which read:

The consciousness that makes no showing,
Nor has to do with finiteness,
Not claiming being with respect to all.

In retrospect, I find this rendering far from satisfactory and thus here offer my own. These lines (which also appear as part of a full verse at DN 11.85/i.223) have been a perennial challenge to Buddhist scholarship, and even Acariya Buddhaghosa seems to founder over them. MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibb›na, called “consciousness” (viÌÌ›˚aª) in the sense that “it can be cognized” (vij›nitabbaª). This derivation is hardly credible, since nowhere in the Nik›yas is Nibb›na described as consciousness, nor is it possible to derive an active noun from the gerundive. MA explains anidassanaª as meaning invisible, “because it (Nibb›na) does not come within range of eye-consciousness,” but again this is a trite explanation. The word anidassana occurs at MN 21.14 in the description of empty space as an unsuitable medium for painting pictures; thus the idea seems to be that of not making manifest.

MA offers three explanations of sabbato pabhaª: (1) completely possessed of luminosity (pabh›); (2) possessing being (pabhÒtaª) everywhere; and (3) a ford (pabhaª) accessible from all sides, i.e., through any of the thirtyeight meditation objects. Only the first of these seems to have any linguistic legitimacy. Ñm, in Ms, explains that he takes pabhaª to be a negative present participle of pabhavati—apabhaª—the negative-prefix a dropping off in conjunction with sabbato: “The sense can be paraphrased. freely by ‘not predicating being in relation to “all,”’ or ‘not assuming of “all” that it is or is not in an absolute sense.’” But if we take pabhaª as “luminous,” which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idaª cittaª, AN i.10) and also suggests the light of wisdom (paÌÌ›pabh›), called the best of lights (AN ii.139). I[ie Ven. Bodhi] understand this consciousness to be, not Nibb›na itself, but the arahant’s consciousness during the meditative experience of Nibb›na. See in this connection AN v.7–10, 318–26. Note that this meditative experience does not make manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be truly described as “non-manifesting.”
So bottom line is, although the Comy equated it to Nibbana, there're sutta evidences that seem to challenge it as provided by Thanissaro and Bodhi. Unfortunately, to really certify which is the correct interpretation, one would have to attain arahantship first to see it for himself,...or wait for the future Metteyya Buddha to come and explain it to us... :smile:

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:33 pm

Im so sick of this heresy, lies and defenestration tactics.
A lot of people challenge many things, unsuccessfully.
Compare definitions of Vinnana Anidassanam;
DN11;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.

Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
To the definition of Nibbana from the Nibbana Sutta Ud 8.1;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Frankly i don't even want to keep posting if Doot is allowed to lie and defenestrate in this manner. Where did he ever refute this, where did anybody ever refute this, what a load of unsubstantiated bs.

Thing is people can "doubt", "challenge", be skeptical, disagree but until they beyond doubt disprove or defend at least rightfully defend a contradictory view, they are just noise and people who don't get it.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
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Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:50 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:33 pm
Frankly i don't even want to keep posting if Doot is allowed to lie
Later... :strawman: :jedi: ;)

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:53 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 am
Vinnanam anidassanam is just a clean, jhanic, 100% defilement-free arahant's consciousness, which can be called "nibbana with a residue", because this is a state of consciousness, when greed, hatred and delustion are destroyed (as explained by Ven. Sariputta in SN 38.1).
There is no evidence for this because DN 11 and MN 49 do not mention 100% defilement-free. For example, DN 11 merely states:
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:54 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:33 pm
DN11;
...
You might like to read Bhante Sujato's analysis here:
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13 ... E2%80%99t/

Here is the passage in question: https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato#85.8

Here is the conclusion:
Sujato wrote: It is simpler and more natural to read the verses as asking two questions, with the verb uparujjhati (ceases) acting as a ‘lamp’ to apply to both the preceding clauses. In that case the syntax of the answer would be expressed thusly:
Water, earth, fire, air do not find a footing in viññāṇa that is non-manifest, infinite, radiant all-round.
(i.e., the four material elements cease temporarily in the formless attainments, which is the highest reach of the Brahmanical teachings – even this much Brahma, being a deity of the form realm, did not know.)
Long and short, small, gross, fair and ugly, name and form cease without remainder with the cessation of viññāṇa. This is where this all ceases.
(i.e., the Buddha’s real teaching is not to temporarily escape materiality, but to reach an ending of suffering. And since all forms of viññāṇa (yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ…) are said countless times to be suffering, even the infinite consciousness has to go.)
In Ud 8.1 earth, etc, do not only "find no footing", they are absent:
“There is that sphere, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/anandajoti#sc3
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by Zom » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
How to read it:

Here, [cravings for] long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form -
are all brought to an end.

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:05 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:54 pm
In Ud 8.1 earth, etc, do not only "find no footing", they are absent:
I don't really care enough to read the analysis atm and i am more concerned with logical deduction than the particular wording of a translation. So when something does not gain a footing it is also absent to that extent, there should be no doubt about that.

Thanks tho, i will bookmark it and look at it later.

However one thing i will add to the way criticism of certain positions plays out in general is that a criticism without an endgame is completely worthless even tho it might look convincing until a refutation is given.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
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Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:42 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:05 pm
i am more concerned with logical deduction than the particular wording of a translation....
Well, the analysis IS about logical deduction. Bhante Sujato points out that one should read the DN 11 passage in context and realise that it it talking about two different things: "no footing" and "cessation".

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by aflatun » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:47 pm

I'm a great admirer of Bhante Sujato, but I find his argument unconvincing. However I appreciate what appears to be his motivation (avoiding eternalism).

I prefer Sylvester's analysis here:
mikeenz66 wrote:Bhante Sujato points out that one should read the DN 11 passage in context and realise that it it talking about two different things: "no footing" and "cessation".
Ven. Bodhi's translation of SN1.27 implies there is essentially one question with one answer here: Cessation and No Footing occur in the same "place."
From where do the streams turn back?
Where does the round no longer revolve?
Where does name-and-form cease,
Stop without remainder?”

“Where water, earth, fire, and air,
Do not gain a footing:
It is from here that the streams turn back,
Here that the round no longer revolves;
Here name-and-form ceases,
Stops without remainder.”
The answer is Nibbana. Obviously Nibbana is not consciousness, so we have some choices here, including:

1) agree with the commentaries that this refers to Nibbana and the use of the phrase VA here is a peculiarity

2) agree with Nagarjuna*** that the reference is to wisdom, i.e. correct understanding of Samsara which is Nibbana (on his reading of course)

3) agree with Ven. Nv that the reference is to the end of any and all conceit, which of course, is Nibbana

4) agree with Sylvester that VA is ceased consciousness, which of course, is Nibbana.

All these readings (maybe there are more) avoid the Eternalism issue and I find them all coherent and defensible. The first two are entirely orthodox, considering the tradition as a whole, and rendered by people infinitely closer to these texts than we are. So I believe we should pay attention.

Or we can continue to make things up, reconstruct an imaginary ur text, etc...

***I'd love to know the precise wording of the Agama Ven. Nag. refers to in Ratnavali 93, but I can't find it.
Coëmgenu wrote:

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Last edited by aflatun on Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:50 pm

I skimmed thru Sujato's work and from what it looks like his trick is to first assume that Vinnana Anidassanam = Vinnana and from there state that Nibbana =/= Vinnana and therefore Nibbana=/= Vinnana Anidassanam. Which would be true if the initial assumption of Vinnana Anidassanam = Vinnana was true, which it is not something established.

I also noticed that he works exclusively with Ven. Bodhi's translation of Vinnana Anidassanam which is "Vinnana non-manifesting" whereas most translate it as "Vinnana without X" or "Vinnana not manifesting X", there is a big difference between the two
1) Vinnana not being manifested
2) Vinnana not manifesting something

*The word anidassana occurs at MN 21.14 in the description of empty space as an unsuitable medium for painting picture
s

Actually the #2 is the most simple and a natural assumption if one looks into it.

The other point he made of "no footing" vs "being abscent" is a no point imo because as i said something not having gained footing would be absent to that extent. This can easily be illustrated with analogies and similes.

So basicly he seems to be alligned with Ven. Bodhi who pretty much openly adheres to Nibbana in the Here & Now and says that he does not meditate much. Afaik Ven. Sujato does not meditate much either so no surprise there.

Anyway if somebody wants to keep debating this we can do it formally again and again
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:08 pm

Im so sick of this heresy, lies and defenestration tactics.
A lot of people challenge many things, unsuccessfully.
Compare definitions of Vinnana Anidassanam;
DN11;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.

Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
To the definition of Nibbana from the Nibbana Sutta Ud 8.1;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Frankly i don't even want to keep posting if Doot is allowed to lie and defenestrate in this manner. Where did he ever refute this, where did anybody ever refute this, what a load of unsubstantiated bs.

Thing is people can "doubt", "challenge", be skeptical, disagree but until they beyond doubt disprove or defend at least rightfully defend a contradictory view, they are just noise and people who don't get it.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by aflatun » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:23 pm

aflatun wrote:3) agree with Ven. Nv that the reference is to the end of any and all conceit, which of course, is Nibbana

funny enough...

MN49 wrote:So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you. Having directly known earth as earth, and having directly known that which does not fall within the scope of experience based on earth, I did not identify with earth, I did not identify regarding earth, I did not identify as earth, I did not identify ‘earth is mine’, I did not enjoy earth. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you. Having directly known water … fire … air … creatures … gods … the Creator … Brahmā … the gods of streaming radiance … the gods replete with glory … the gods of abundant fruit … the Overlord … Having directly known all as all, and having directly known that which does not fall within the scope of experience based on all, I did not identify with all, I did not identify regarding all, I did not identify as all, I did not identify ‘all is mine’, I did not enjoy all. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you.’

‘Well, good sir, if you have directly known that which is not within the scope of experience based on all, may your words not turn out to be void and hollow!

Consciousness that is invisible, infinite, radiant all round—that’s what is not within the scope of experience based on earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Creator, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord, and the all.

Well look now, good sir, I will vanish from you!’ ‘All right, then, Brahmā, vanish from me—if you can.’ Then Baka the Brahmā said: ‘I will vanish from the ascetic Gotama! I will vanish from the ascetic Gotama!’ But he was unable to vanish from me.

So I said to him: ‘Well look now, Brahmā, I will vanish from you!’ ‘All right, then, good sir, vanish from me—if you can.’ Then I used my psychic power to will that my voice would extend so that Brahmā, his assembly, and his retinue would hear me, but they would not see me. And while invisible I recited this verse:

‘Seeing the danger in continued existence—
that life in any existence will cease to be—
I didn’t welcome any kind of existence,
and didn’t grasp at relishing
.’

Then Brahmā, his assembly, and his retinue, their minds full of wonder and amazement, thought: ‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! The ascetic Gotama has such psychic power and might! We’ve never before seen or heard of any other ascetic or brahmin with psychic power and might like the ascetic Gotama, who has gone forth from the Sakyan clan. Though people enjoy continued existence, loving it so much, he has extracted it down to its root.’
MN49

"The All" occurs in this passage a similar position to MN1, i.e. after everything else (excluding Nibbana in MN1) hence, IMO encompassing everything. Nothing is excluded from the scope of the Buddha's VA/freedom from conceit/extinction.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:32 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:50 pm
The other point he made of "no footing" vs "being abscent" is a no point imo because as i said something not having gained footing would be absent to that extent. This can easily be illustrated with analogies and similes.
Furthermore there is more to the definition of Vinnana Anidassanam than the primaries not having a footing, there is also the part of Nama&Rupa being brought to an end which would alone narrow it down pretty much.
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?

Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
It is not like there is a multitude of states where both name&form are brought to an end..
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:50 pm
I skimmed thru Sujato's work
...
I also noticed that he works exclusively with Ven. Bodhi's translation of Vinnana Anidassanam which is "Vinnana non-manifesting" ...
Actually he translates it himself here:
“Consciousness that’s invisible
‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ
https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato#85.18
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