Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

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Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

One life model
0
No votes
One life model and moment to moment
6
15%
Two lives model
0
No votes
Three lives model
3
8%
Three lives model and moment to moment
9
23%
Multiple lives model
3
8%
Multiple lives model & moment-to-moment
7
18%
Moment to moment only
1
3%
Timeless/Atemporal/Structural
7
18%
Simultaneous, non-linear
4
10%
 
Total votes: 40

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dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am

simultaneous, non-linear
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Dinsdale
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am
simultaneous, non-linear
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am
simultaneous, non-linear
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
It's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"

there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.

the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6132
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 am
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
It's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about mode No. 1 here. Mode No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states, ie when A arises ( then ) B arises.

1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 am
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
It's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.

1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
no i quoted number 2.

imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati

in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that

& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:48 am

why would it take time for something to cease when its requisite condition ceases?

if "when this is, this is" & "when this isn't, this isn't" is true of the two links then the moment one is, the other is, & the moment one isn't, the other isn't
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

User avatar
dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:49 am

the dhamma is akāliko/timeless in the most literal sense
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6132
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:53 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am


It's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.

1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
no i quoted number 2.
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
I disagree, and actually you seem to have quoted both 1 and 2.

Look at these definitions:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hoti

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppajjati

Can you see the difference?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:53 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am


But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.

1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
no i quoted number 2.
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
I disagree, and actually you seem to have quoted both 1 and 2.

Look at these definitions:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hoti

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppajjati

Can you see the difference?
you are misunderstanding me. i meant initially when i made the comparison & you replied saying "I think you're talking about no1 here" I had in fact quoted what you called no 2. then i quoted the whole thing.

yes i know the difference. i have the whole quartet memorized in pali & english
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6132
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:48 am
why would it take time for something to cease when its requisite condition ceases?
if "when this is, this is" & "when this isn't, this isn't" is true of the two links then the moment one is, the other is, & the moment one isn't, the other isn't
You are still missing the distinction between the two modes of conditionality.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:57 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am
yes i know the difference. i have the whole quartet memorized in pali & english
So can you explain what you think the difference actually is between these two modes of conditionality?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:57 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:53 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am


But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.

1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
no i quoted number 2.
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
I disagree, and actually you seem to have quoted both 1 and 2.

Look at these definitions:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hoti

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppajjati

Can you see the difference?
anyway the problem is that interpreting it sequentially explicitly contradicts line 3 & 4 as it would be equivalent to saying that one link can & does exist while the other does not, or that it can & does not exist while the other does.

if you think that saṅkhārā arises after ignorance & not simultaneously that means there is a moment where there is ignorance but no saṅkhārā. & if you think saṅkhārā ceases after ignorance ceases that means there is a moment where there is no ignorance but there is saṅkhārā

so sequential interpretation is precluded & specifically denied. that's why the buddha said all 4 lines & not just 1 & 3
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

User avatar
dylanj
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:59 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:57 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am
yes i know the difference. i have the whole quartet memorized in pali & english
So can you explain what you think the difference actually is between these two modes of conditionality?
it's one mode. the 4 lines are collectively referred to as idappaccayatā, "specific conditionality".
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 833
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:00 am

btw a more literal translation would be

This existing, this exists;
this arising, this arises;
this not existing, this does not exist;
this ceasing, this ceases’.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6132
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:57 am
anyway the problem is that interpreting it sequentially explicitly contradicts line 3 & 4 as it would be equivalent to saying that one link can & does exist while the other does not, or that it can & does not exist while the other does.

if you think that saṅkhārā arises after ignorance & not simultaneously that means there is a moment where there is ignorance but no saṅkhārā. & if you think saṅkhārā ceases after ignorance ceases that means there is a moment where there is no ignorance but there is saṅkhārā

so sequential interpretation is precluded & specifically denied. that's why the buddha said all 4 lines & not just 1 & 3
The Buddha said all 4 lines because there are two ( different ) modes of conditionality in DO.

Tanha arising in dependence upon vedana is an example of No. 2.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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