I am curious as to whether or not there are any convincing arguments against this view?
Not necessarily just that the Buddha said that oneness is an extreme that he did not teach, I already know that, I am wondering if there are any actual arguments that directly refute the idea of "oneness", either from the canon or from anywhere else?
All is one. Change my view.
All is one. Change my view.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: All is one. Change my view.
An extract from the essay (2800 words):
"Finally, in the domain of wisdom the Ariyan Dhamma and the non-dual systems once again move in contrary directions. In the non-dual systems the task of wisdom is to break through the diversified appearances (or the appearance of diversity) in order to discover the unifying reality that underlies them. Concrete phenomena, in their distinctions and their plurality, are mere appearance, while true reality is the One: either a substantial Absolute (the Atman, Brahman, the Godhead, etc.), or a metaphysical zero (Sunyata, the Void Nature of Mind, etc.). For such systems, liberation comes with the arrival at the fundamental unity in which opposites merge and distinctions evaporate like dew.
In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana). Hence, to know things as they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain insight into their qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all-embracing identification with the All, but toward disengagement and detachment, release from the All."---"Dhamma and Non-duality", Bikkhu Bodhi.
"Finally, in the domain of wisdom the Ariyan Dhamma and the non-dual systems once again move in contrary directions. In the non-dual systems the task of wisdom is to break through the diversified appearances (or the appearance of diversity) in order to discover the unifying reality that underlies them. Concrete phenomena, in their distinctions and their plurality, are mere appearance, while true reality is the One: either a substantial Absolute (the Atman, Brahman, the Godhead, etc.), or a metaphysical zero (Sunyata, the Void Nature of Mind, etc.). For such systems, liberation comes with the arrival at the fundamental unity in which opposites merge and distinctions evaporate like dew.
In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana). Hence, to know things as they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain insight into their qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all-embracing identification with the All, but toward disengagement and detachment, release from the All."---"Dhamma and Non-duality", Bikkhu Bodhi.
Last edited by paul on Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All is one. Change my view.
Greetings Zan,
Metta,
Paul.
SN 12.48 is adequate to answer your question from the Dhammic point of view. If you wish to know something ontological or cosmological beyond that, such conjecture is not connected to dukkha & nirodha, and thus to the Dhamma.zan wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 am I am curious as to whether or not there are any convincing arguments against this view?
Not necessarily just that the Buddha said that oneness is an extreme that he did not teach, I already know that, I am wondering if there are any actual arguments that directly refute the idea of "oneness", either from the canon or from anywhere else?
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: All is one. Change my view.
This called Mana in Buddhism.zan wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 am I am curious as to whether or not there are any convincing arguments against this view?
Not necessarily just that the Buddha said that oneness is an extreme that he did not teach, I already know that I am wondering if there are any actual arguments that directly refute the idea of "oneness", either from the canon or from anywhere else?
That is any form of measuring.
The thought higher, lower and equal are all come under Mana.
All is one is the thought all is equal.
By the way, if you have come so far you are an enlightened being but not necessarily an Ariya.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: All is one. Change my view.
[The Buddha:] "Yes, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned it correctly, attended to it correctly, remembered it correctly. Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle, & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness — the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk — not attending to the perception[1] of village, not attending to the perception of human being — attends to the singleness based on the perception of wilderness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness.
"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
— Ud 5.5
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
Re: All is one. Change my view.
There's a very simple experiential argument for this:zan wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 am I am curious as to whether or not there are any convincing arguments against this view?
Not necessarily just that the Buddha said that oneness is an extreme that he did not teach, I already know that, I am wondering if there are any actual arguments that directly refute the idea of "oneness", either from the canon or from anywhere else?
Go to the toilet, do a nr. 2, and then look at it, smell it, *gasp* touch it, and think "This, too, is me. All is one."
(This is in the Lounge, so it's not against the ToS.)
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: All is one. Change my view.
Even more radically: if you are capable of doing a "number 2", then all can't be just one, can it?binocular wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:50 amThere's a very simple experiential argument for this:zan wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 am I am curious as to whether or not there are any convincing arguments against this view?
Not necessarily just that the Buddha said that oneness is an extreme that he did not teach, I already know that, I am wondering if there are any actual arguments that directly refute the idea of "oneness", either from the canon or from anywhere else?
Go to the toilet, do a nr. 2, and then look at it, smell it, *gasp* touch it, and think "This, too, is me. All is one."
(This is in the Lounge, so it's not against the ToS.)
Re: All is one. Change my view.
From the link:
Inconceivable being the key term here.Achintya-Bheda-Abheda (अचिन्त्यभेदाभेद, acintyabhedābheda in IAST) is a school of Vedanta representing the philosophy of inconceivable one-ness and difference.
Re: All is one. Change my view.
Heh. But nevertheless, the authors of the Achintya-Bheda-Abheda doctrine conceived of it ...
Anyway, the best objection against the idea that "All is one" is that "All is one" has no explanatory power, it's useless.
However, it seems that someone who already subscribes to "All is one" (like the OP, asking that we change their view) cannot move out of or away from it, because it frames all of their efforts and keeps them within "All is one". In that sense, "All is one" is a metaphysical straitjacket.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: All is one. Change my view.
I'm of the opinion that the doctrine is eminently conceivable, in that one can say the words. It's the fact, the one-ness itself, which is inconceivable.
Agreed, but I'd call that the "second best objection". The best objection is that it doesn't lead to the end of suffering.Anyway, the best objection against the idea that "All is one" is that "All is one" has no explanatory power, it's useless.
I don't think that ideas are so important or compelling that they can be a trap. It seems to me to be more of a cul-de-sac or dead end, rather than a straitjacket. Mountaineering, falling in love, or meditation are all sovereign remedies.However, it seems that someone who already subscribes to "All is one" (like the OP, asking that we change their view) cannot move out of or away from it, because it frames all of their efforts and keeps them within "All is one". In that sense, "All is one" is a metaphysical straitjacket.
Re: All is one. Change my view.
But how then can they write whole tomes about it?
In the "All is one" mentality, suffering and the end of suffering don't play important roles; someone with an "All is one" mentality does not strive to make an end to suffering. Instead, they've seemingly solved the problem of suffering with the thought-terminating cliche "All is one". (It's not possible to have an intelligible conversation with a proponent of "All is one". Then there is the issue of whether to analyze the situation from the perspective of the person holding "All is one", or from some other.)Agreed, but I'd call that the "second best objection". The best objection is that it doesn't lead to the end of suffering.Anyway, the best objection against the idea that "All is one" is that "All is one" has no explanatory power, it's useless.
Thank heavens for time!I don't think that ideas are so important or compelling that they can be a trap. It seems to me to be more of a cul-de-sac or dead end, rather than a straitjacket. Mountaineering, falling in love, or meditation are all sovereign remedies.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: All is one. Change my view.
Papanca. Or, I might have comletely misunderstood it.
Yes, I have exactly the same feeling. I also suspect there are many different "All is one" mentalities, and the form of words alone is the same.In the "All is one" mentality, suffering and the end of suffering don't play important roles; someone with an "All is one" mentality does not strive to make an end to suffering. Instead, they've seemingly solved the problem of suffering with the thought-terminating cliche "All is one". (It's not possible to have an intelligible conversation with a proponent of "All is one". Then there is the issue of whether to analyze the situation from the perspective of the person holding "All is one", or from some other.)