Vinaya Pitaka

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
suanck
Posts: 93
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by suanck » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:41 am

puthujjana wrote:
Chula wrote:If I haven't remembered wrong the bhikkhu was complaining that the Patimokkha now had 150 rules.. Interesting since now it contains 227..
Does anyone know where this passage is from?
Hej Chula,

it's from AN 3:83.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the 150-rules-passage:

"This is said with reference to the Patimokha, the code of monastic rules, which in its Pali version actually contains 227 rules. Perhaps at this time the Patimokha had not yet reached its final shape."

:anjali:
That's why B.C. Law wrote an article entitled "Chronology of the Pali Canon", in which he suggested the Vinaya Pitaka was developed in stages over the period of 300 years, after the Buddha's Parinibbana:

1) earlier Patimokkha code of 152 rules; then
2) the Suttavibhanga; then
3) the Mahavagga and the Cullavagga, the Patimokkha code completing 227 rules; then
4) the Parivarapatha.

Suan.

Paññāsikhara
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by Paññāsikhara » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:39 am

suanck wrote:
puthujjana wrote:
Chula wrote:If I haven't remembered wrong the bhikkhu was complaining that the Patimokkha now had 150 rules.. Interesting since now it contains 227..
Does anyone know where this passage is from?
Hej Chula,

it's from AN 3:83.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the 150-rules-passage:

"This is said with reference to the Patimokha, the code of monastic rules, which in its Pali version actually contains 227 rules. Perhaps at this time the Patimokha had not yet reached its final shape."

:anjali:
That's why B.C. Law wrote an article entitled "Chronology of the Pali Canon", in which he suggested the Vinaya Pitaka was developed in stages over the period of 300 years, after the Buddha's Parinibbana:

1) earlier Patimokkha code of 152 rules; then
2) the Suttavibhanga; then
3) the Mahavagga and the Cullavagga, the Patimokkha code completing 227 rules; then
4) the Parivarapatha.

Suan.
Well, one must keep in mind how many of the rules are also found in the Mahasamghika Vinaya, if we suppose that the first schism occurred about 70-116 after the Parinibbana. I don't think BC Law referred to the Chinese Vinaya texts (much, if at all). Such is old scholarship. For 227 years, 300 years seems probably far to long to me. Should be about the time of the second council.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

Paññāsikhara
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by Paññāsikhara » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:40 am

Chula wrote:Somewhat unrelated, but I recall a passage where a bhikkhu tells the Buddha that he can't remember the Vinaya, and the Buddha tells him to train in "heightened virtue, heightened mind and heightened discernment" in that case.

If I haven't remembered wrong the bhikkhu was complaining that the Patimokkha now had 150 rules.. Interesting since now it contains 227..
Does anyone know where this passage is from? I'll try to find it later today otherwise..
And just think how many arhats there were, who may have spread far and wide to teach the Dhamma, before even the first rule of the Vinaya was established. Many would have been forest meditators, highly realized and wise - yet not a single rule of Vinaya. Of course, they would still have natural restraint as their kilesas would have been completely removed, but that is not the "Vinaya" we are referring to here.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

Bankei
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by Bankei » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:17 am

As religions develop they tend to get more complex. There is an argument that the dating of the vinayas can be determined by the number of rules they contain - look at the Mulasarvastivada it is clearly late and has the most rules. There seems to be a tendency to add rules when new situations arise - this is the same with secular law too. It is interesting to note the Mahasamghika have the least number of rules. The common rules in the vinaya could be the core rules before the schisms into various schools. But Gregory Schopen has pointed out the vinaya/suttas could have common parts because of later borrowings from other schools.

The article by Prebish and Nattier also provide some evidence that the Theravada added to their vinaya rules.

K.R. Norman has also commented on the language of the Pali vinaya and said it was so corrupt in some places as to be incomprehensible. I can't remember where I read this, but think he was referring to the section on Kathina, and that it can only be properly understood by referring to other traditions and translations.

Bhikkhuni Dhammananda (Chatsumarn Kabilsingh), wrote her Ph.D. thesis on a comparison of the six different vinayas and wrote a book including a translating them all, see:
The Bhikkhuni Patimokkha of the Six Schools
By Chatsumarn Kabilsingh Ph.D.
A translation the monastic rules of Buddhist nuns or the Patimokkha of the Six Schools.
http://www.buddhist-elibrary.org/librar ... adpath=112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (free download)
-----------------------
Bankei

suanck
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by suanck » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:56 am

Bankei wrote:
Bhikkhuni Dhammananda (Chatsumarn Kabilsingh), wrote her Ph.D. thesis on a comparison of the six different vinayas and wrote a book including a translating them all, see:
The Bhikkhuni Patimokkha of the Six Schools
By Chatsumarn Kabilsingh Ph.D.
A translation the monastic rules of Buddhist nuns or the Patimokkha of the Six Schools.
http://www.buddhist-elibrary.org/librar ... adpath=112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (free download)
It should be noted that in the Introduction, Ven Dhammananda wrote that the 5 Chinese Vinayas were translated from Chinese to Thai by a Chinese-Thai scholar. Subsequently, she used the Thai translation for her research and later translated from Thai to English.

Suan.

Paññāsikhara
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by Paññāsikhara » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:37 am

suanck wrote:
Bankei wrote:
Bhikkhuni Dhammananda (Chatsumarn Kabilsingh), wrote her Ph.D. thesis on a comparison of the six different vinayas and wrote a book including a translating them all, see:
The Bhikkhuni Patimokkha of the Six Schools
By Chatsumarn Kabilsingh Ph.D.
A translation the monastic rules of Buddhist nuns or the Patimokkha of the Six Schools.
http://www.buddhist-elibrary.org/librar ... adpath=112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (free download)
It should be noted that in the Introduction, Ven Dhammananda wrote that the 5 Chinese Vinayas were translated from Chinese to Thai by a Chinese-Thai scholar. Subsequently, she used the Thai translation for her research and later translated from Thai to English.

Suan.
Methodological crisis. From Indic to Chinese, from Chinese to Thai, and from Thai to English. Each step of the way is into a radically different language system. That's not good, one should really use the source languages for such a study. Who was the "Chinese-Thai" scholar?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

suanck
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:51 am

Re: Vinaya Pitaka

Post by suanck » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:45 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Methodological crisis. From Indic to Chinese, from Chinese to Thai, and from Thai to English. Each step of the way is into a radically different language system. That's not good, one should really use the source languages for such a study. Who was the "Chinese-Thai" scholar?
Taken from her book:
Acknowledgement

I wish to express deep appreciation to Mr. Liang Sathiensut,
my teacher, who has kindly given an unfailing assistance in
providing and making possible the Thai manuscript of the
Bhikkhuni Patimokkha of the six schools from the Chinese
Version of the Tripitaka.
and from the Introduction:
As my Chinese is only fundamental, I had to search for
help which was not easy. But finally I took help from Mr.
Liang Sathiensut, a graduate from mainland China and a
very good Buddhist scholar. When I worked with him in
1971 he was already in his late sixties with a troubled eyesight.
He had to take the help of both reading glasses and
magnifying glass. So the translation went on slowly with his
reading of each sentence, translated it and I noted down
word by word. There were some obscured passages where
we would check the meanings in Vibhanga for correct
translations.

Our first manuscript in Thai language was completed
after some months of hard work, especially on the part of Mr.
Liang Sathiensut. As the Thais are neither concerned nor
ready for the knowledge about bhikkhunis, the manuscript
was utilised only as primary texts for my dissertation and was
never published in the Thai language.
Suan.

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