Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:30 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 12:25 am
However, since this (that each path is an experience of nibbana) appears to be a key feature of his whole discussion of Nibbana, I'm not sure I could make any sense of the sermons if it was removed.

:heart:
Mike
I do not think he could make it any clearer that it is actually what he meant!

I believe the issue stems from the classification of Sotapanna in the Sutta. It seems to me that all three (2x Followers and 1x Stream-Enterer) would be referred to as Ariyan but only the last would have realized the Nibbana, plunged into Nibbana.
Viññana Sutta: Consciousness
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
Raja Sutta: The Emperor
...
"He/she is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well...who have practiced straight-forwardly...who have practiced methodically...who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four types of noble disciples when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types[1] ...
Notes

1.
The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; (2) the person on the path to once-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of once-returning; (3) the person on the path to non-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of non-returning; (4) the person on the path to arahantship, the person experiencing the fruit of arahantship. The eight individuals are the eight types forming these four pairs.
I do not see what other explaination can be given for what would constitute 8 pairs.
Sotaapanno Sutta: The Sotaapanna ('Stream-winner')
translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
© 2007

[At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:] "Monks, there are these five groups of clinging. What five? The body-group of clinging, the feeling-group, the perception-group, the mental-formation-group, the consciousness-group of clinging.

"And when, monks, the Ariyan disciple understands as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, he is called an Ariyan disciple who is a Stream-winner, not liable to states of woe,[1] assured of final enlightenment."
So my deduction is that one describes a Stream-Enterer as "One who knows and sees" when talking about 4 individual types and as "One who understands" when talking about 8 Individual types.

Furthermore;
The Stream
Sota Sutta (SN 48:3)

“Monks, there are these five faculties. Which five? The faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment. When a disciple of the noble ones discerns, as they have come to be, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, and the escape from these five faculties, he is called a disciple of the noble ones who has attained the stream: never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening.”
This Sutta defines the Entering of the Stream as: not being destined for states of woe. Which would be in line with my deduction of what constitutes an Ariyan.

Another Sutta which defines The Stream as the Path and a Stream Enterer as one who has the 8FNP is SN 55.5 (can't find an english translation)

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:34 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:30 am
I do not see what other explaination can be given for what would constitute 8 pairs.
*8 individuals not pairs

Another theory could be;

1) Faith-Follower
2) Dhamma-Follower
3) One liberated by Faith
4) One attained to view
5) Bodily Witness
6) One Liberated by wisdom
7) One liberated in both ways
8) A Buddha?

A problem here is that there are several sub-types of Buddhas so there is that inconsistency.

Also the wording of The Ratana Sutta does not allow to include a Buddha due to the second sentence;
6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:01 am

I am also inclined to take Dhamma-Eye to refer to the Seeing of Nibbana and Vinnana-Anidassanam to the cognizing of the Feeling of Nibbana, because Eye is what sees and Vinnana is what cognizes the pleasant, to that extent the are synonyms of Nibbana.

Consider this, what is the difference between a Dhamma-Follower and a Stream-Enterer enlisted here if there is no actual cessation of perception and feeling taking place?
"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
The wording of the Sutta does not allow for saying that the latter merely poundered it more and came to even more agreement, for where would seeing come from & why is the verb introduced?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:13 am

This is also fully in line with Canki Sutta;
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. We regard this as the safeguarding of the truth. But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."

"There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.
Here safeguarding the truth would be one who has the Path but has not yet seen and does not know. He does however have confidence or understanding.

Awakening to the truth would be the attainment refered to as;
the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.
And which Dhamma is to be experienced? Imo The Dhamma that is not A Sankhara, The Third Noble Truth, Nibbana. Here he goes beyond conviction by experiencing and thus knows and sees.

Final Attainment of the Truth would be Arahantship by means of;
"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."
And this is why a Stream Enterer does not need a teacher for he has found the method.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:41 am

I think what throws people off is that the arising of the Dhamma eye seems like it is like a nano-second and therefore something that is happening in the here&now, however i think that time being a construct and Nibbana not being subjegated to time it does not work like that.

I personally doubt there would be much difference between a cessation of suffering for 7 days and a cessation for a second, because the difference there would be only in "the coordinates" for the arising and the cessation of suffering. Ie cessation is to occur at 10.04.2018 and the arising is to occur at 14.04.2018, there would be no experience of time inbetween so it makes no difference if the cassation was to last for a second or for days.

To build on the whirlpool analogy, if the whirlpool spins at X mph and something was to get out of the stream thus not being subjegated to the velocity and the wetness of the whirlpool for a certain amount of time before plunging back in, the objects position relative to before leaving the whirlpool would depend on the speed and trajectory of the matter in the whirlpool. The object having left the stream would not be subject to the speed and trajectory of the matter in the whirlpool, therefore it is not at all affected by what is happening in the whirlpool when it is not of the whirlpool.

When the mind intends on cessation it also intends on arising as long as there are conditions for arising, therefore the coordinates for emerging and submerging in the context of a whirlpool are in the domain of the whirlpool, so the intention for cessation and the arising of suffering happens in the suffering and not outside of it. One does not intend on arising of suffering after cessation of suffering, it is pre-determined.

It is like something in the whirlpool was to interact with and hurling an object out of the waters, it is based on the velocities and force with which the object was hit and thrown out of the whirlpool that the objects submerging coordinates back into the whirlpool are determined.

The weakness of this analogy is that leaving the whirlpool as we know it does not imply leaving the time continium but it is a pretty good one nevertheless imo and leaving the time continium is what should be imagined because the Nibbana transcends the realms of existence where the time-continium is respectively constructed.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta.
SN 13.1
In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater.

SN 13.1

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:19 pm

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three properties. Which three? The property of form, the property of formlessness, & the property of cessation. These are the three properties."

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:43 am

hey, i was very recently reading something like that, and i was reading as you know sutta nipāta
dont remember where or if it was in one of the commentaries
however the term seeing the deathless, and also touching the deathless, by a jhana monk, come to mind. ven vimalaramsi said something about mundane nibbana once
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 am

Self-identification is a synonym for dukkha. Stream-enterer has cut self-identification view therefore cut lots of dukkha.
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

MN 44

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 pm

Hello:

Maybe this is enough, from the Mahavagga — Mv I.23.5:
[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have...
"
Trivia: Having bright faculties, and pure & clear complexion are the typical formula of the canon when talking about a person who just emerged from the cessation of feeling & perception (mn-43), so maybe thats another important fact that supports the idea of nibbana experienced in the first stages of awakening.

Regards.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:55 pm

2600htz wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 pm
Hello:

Maybe this is enough, from the Mahavagga — Mv I.23.5:
[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have...
"
Trivia: Having bright faculties, and pure & clear complexion are the typical formula of the canon when talking about a person who just emerged from the cessation of feeling & perception (mn-43), so maybe thats another important fact that supports the idea of nibbana experienced in the first stages of awakening.

Regards.
A very important text, showing that the Arising of the Dhamma-Eye is the Attainment of the Deathless.
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am
dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
The suttas suggest a stream enterer has only an intellectual understanding of nibbana and not a direct experience of it. That would also be technically impossible, since a stream enterer can not even experience jhana let alone such a state as nibbana. There is even a sutta where a stream enterer is asked about this and here is what he answered:
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose effluents are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose effluents are ended."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Stream enterer is one that only has knowledge that "there is water" - he only knows what exactly this nibbana is and how to attain it. But he can not taste it. Not to mention that since he can not even dwell in a state that still has defilements such as jhana, how could he possibly be capable of experiencing a state of no defilement whatsoever, much higher than any of the jhanas ? How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by robertk » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:22 pm

How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
Small.?
He has already directly known Nama- rupaparichedda nana, something that is due to extraordinary level of understanding. And then a further 15 stages of insight.

None of this is related to skill in jhana.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Polar Bear » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:42 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am
dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
Hello Bhante,

I think we’re still left with the question of what it means to see the third noble truth. A minimalist interpretation would suggest simply that they’ve experienced a moment completely without craving and noticed they weren’t suffering at that moment. It doesn’t necessarily follow that they’ve experienced an unconditioned reality upon coming to which, fetters were destroyed.
“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it. - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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