Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dan74
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Dan74 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:01 am

:thumbsup:

Good to hear!

I wonder though if we got a pretty skewed picture of Thai Buddhism from a thread like this...

It did nourish these very people that have now come in conflict with it (or some aspects of it).

I guess that Thai Buddhism can no more be called corrupt than Australians can be called racist or any other such generalization. As you say Jack, there are surely great monks in Thailand and even reading some of the discussion at WPP we see that there were quite different voices at work there. But in the end institutions have a strange character of their own, and it should not necessarily be imputed to all the individuals that comprise it.

_/|\_

PS Just saw - no apology needed!!! :anjali:
_/|\_

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:50 am

A matter of being truthful
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/sports/ ... g-truthful" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Published: 7/01/2010 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News

What do you do when you are accused of being untruthful, especially when the accuser is a monk?

I asked myself this question after reading the statement of the Wat Nong Pah Pong forest clergy at http://www.dhammalight.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, accusing my news report for "misrepresenting" their press conference, before introducing an entirely new explanation for the event.

I was first appalled, then angry.

What should I do?

As a Buddhist, my better self told me that the best thing to do is to watch my anger rise, to observe how it grows to engulf my whole body, before it finally dies down.

Honestly, it is not an easy exercise.

After subsiding for a moment, the emotions attacked me in successive waves while thoughts bubbled up to fan my dismay. Although I was boiling within, I took heart in the knowledge that this "dukkha" would not last. That this exercise of detached observation could teach me a bit more about the impermanence of emotion, thought, and eventually the futility of my own attachment to views and sense of self.

Any insight I would gain from this exercise I knew I owe it, too, to the person who has presented me with this challenge. At the end of the day, I am solely responsible for the cultivation of my equanimity. And he his.

As a journalist, however, I am glad that I have the temple's press release to back my news report: .

Following the excommunication of Ajahn Brahm, the abbot of Bodhinyana in Perth, Australia, for sponsoring full female ordination, the forest monk clergy of Wat Nong Pah Pong want the Council of Elders and National Buddhism to help them in exploring ways to get the "Thai temple" back to the "Thai people".

They also want the Council of Elders to issue rules on temple ownership and management to govern temples abroad to prevent Western monks from ordaining more women or violating other mandates from the Thai Sangha.

Nothing was mentioned about an intention to shift responsibility to the Council of Elders to decide about Bhodinyana Temple's ownership and the abbot status of Ajahn Brahm.

I only smelled blood at the press conference which was triggered by Wat Pah Pong's fury with what they saw as the ridicule of Thai monks and Buddhists by Ajahn Brahm during his talk in Singapore.

But being there was eye-opening. We might not agree with the Wat Pah Pong monks' fierce opposition to female ordination, obsession with punishment and control, the unquestioning submission to the feudal hierarchy against the original egalitarian spirit of the Sangha, or their deep attachment to ethnic Thai culture and nationalism.

But we cannot deny they are honest and open about their views and biases.

Come to think of it, how could they view things differently when they are - like most Thais - the products of an authoritarian, hierarchical, ultra-nationalistic culture?

The position of Wat Pah Pong's Thai elders also does not correspond with the portrayal of a rational clergy that upholds consensus decision-making and are open to gradual and timely changes for female monastics as painted in the Dhammalight website, run by Western monks. Obviously, there is a gap between the Thai and Western forest monks. While one is lost in the feudal world, the other is pressured to pacify the Western laity in the 21st century, struggling for balance.

I empathise with the Western monks who are caught between the two different worlds. But with due respect, projecting an inaccurate picture of the situation only compromises one's commitment to truthfulness. Here's the reality:

The Thai Sangha do not accept Bhikkhuni ordination and they have no qualms in crushing dissent.

But there is no stopping change.

The number of Bhikkhunis under the Sri Lankan Bhikkhuni Sangha in Thailand is growing. Their challenge now is to build nurturing, egalitarian communities of female monastics. To do so, it is crucial to face and undo the remaining patriarchal conditioning in one's psyche so as not to repeat the male Sangha's mistakes.

It is a spiritually demanding journey that will benefit many - the male clergy included.

Sanitsuda Ekachai is Assistant Editor (Outlook), Bangkok Post.
Email: sanitsudae@bangkokpost.co.th

Relate Search: Wat Nong Pah Pong, Ajahn Brahm, National Buddhism

About the author


Writer: Sanitsuda Ekachai
Position: Assistant Editor (Outlook)
-----------------------
Bankei

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:58 am

Notice this quote from Santisuda above
Come to think of it, how could they view things differently when they are - like most Thais - the products of an authoritarian, hierarchical, ultra-nationalistic culture?
A Thai talking about fellow Thais.
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Bankei

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:01 am

Where is the original press release to back her up?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Vardali » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:38 pm

Manapa wrote:Where is the original press release to back her up?
She stated somewhere (Facebook!?) that it was a hardcopy handout. I am assuming that it was in Thai, though (as it was a Thai press conf).
Perhaps you can contact her or WPP if you want a copy of that.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:30 pm

Vardali wrote:
Manapa wrote:Where is the original press release to back her up?
She stated somewhere (Facebook!?) that it was a hardcopy handout. I am assuming that it was in Thai, though (as it was a Thai press conf).
Perhaps you can contact her or WPP if you want a copy of that.
I don't have to prove what she says, she does.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:17 pm

Manapa wrote:
Vardali wrote:
Manapa wrote:Where is the original press release to back her up?
She stated somewhere (Facebook!?) that it was a hardcopy handout. I am assuming that it was in Thai, though (as it was a Thai press conf).
Perhaps you can contact her or WPP if you want a copy of that.
I don't have to prove what she says, she does.
What a strange comment!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:55 pm

Hi All

Comment from Bhante Sujato on http://sujato.wordpress.com/
Wat Pah Pong press conference discussions
January 7, 2010 sujato Leave a comment
Those of you who have been following this blog will be aware of the press conference held on December 28, 2009 by senior Ajahns from Wat Pa Pong. This has generated a number of reactions, and I wanted to gather them all chronologically here.

First we received an account of the conference from Bangkok Post reporter Sanitsuda Ekachai. I posted this and made my own comments. This reported that WPP were accusing Ajahn Brahm of temple mismanagement; that Bodhinyana should be given to the Thai Sangha; and that the main issue was bhikkhuni ordination, which is unacceptable in Thailand, as is siladhara ordination.

The contents of the press conference were so shocking that some people initially questioned whether Sanitsuda was actually the author. Soon after, however, Sanitsuda soon published an article in the Bangkok Post.

The response to the conference was by now so bad that WPP had to step in. They posted an article under the name of The Administrative Committee of Wat Nong Pah Pong. This article claimed that while the matter was cleared up in the Thai newspapers, the English language press has misrepresented them. They mentioned two points, one claiming that they did not ask to take control of monasteries in the West; and they took issue with the phrase ’sooner or later we’ll see female monks everywhere’, saying it would be better translated as :

“If we (Wat Nong Pah Pong) had not taken any action, it would open the doors in the future for women to ordain as bhikkhunis within the Wat Nong Pah Pong western sangha, running into the same problem we have at the moment (breaking Thai law)”.

You can decide for yourselves whether this is any better; it seems to me it’s merely more wimpy than the original, which encapsulated with unusual clarity one of the dominant underlying fears driving this whole controversy.

But the more controversial issue was the takeover of monastery property. The WPP claim that they were misrepresented in the English language press was challenged by Dheerayupa, who pointed out that the Thai Rath and the Daily News in fact stated that:

“(I or the WPP sangha -> the subject was omitted as very common of the Thai language) want the Council of Elders and the Office of National Buddhism to find ways to bring the land of the Bodhiyana monastery to come under the ownership of Wat Nong Pah Pong because the said land was donated to Luang Phu Chah by Buddhists in Australia while he was visiting Perth.”

When this was sent to Dhammalight by Dheerayupa they admitted that the Thai language press had, after all, made the same mistake as the English articles. It seems they want us to believe that the same mistake was made by three separate newspapers. However, the reality is that the press simply reported what was contained in the WPP press release.

The same point was made by Sanitsuda herself, who defended her professional reputation in a personal and intelligent article. She made the following observations.

We might not agree with the Wat Pah Pong monks’ fierce opposition to female ordination, obsession with punishment and control, the unquestioning submission to the feudal hierarchy against the original egalitarian spirit of the Sangha, or their deep attachment to ethnic Thai culture and nationalism.

But we cannot deny they are honest and open about their views and biases.

The position of Wat Pah Pong’s Thai elders also does not correspond with the portrayal of a rational clergy that upholds consensus decision-making and are open to gradual and timely changes for female monastics as painted in the Dhammalight website, run by Western monks. Obviously, there is a gap between the Thai and Western forest monks. While one is lost in the feudal world, the other is pressured to pacify the Western laity in the 21st century, struggling for balance.

I might point out that I believe Sanitsuda is mistaken in saying that Dhammalight is run by Western monks. My understanding, which is based only on second-hand reports, is that it is operated primarily through a lay supporter of one of the branch monasteries. I don’t know how much involvement either WPP or the Western Ajahns have.

Nevertheless, the split she points out is very real. The international Ajahn Chah Sangha has negotiated this in the past by more or less just following a live and let live policy. This is pleasant enough as long as things run smoothly, but it is in no way adequate to address genuine and important changes, such as bhikkhuni ordination.
With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:13 am

Bankei wrote:
What a strange comment!
if someone makes a claim, they are the one who backs that claim up, nothing strange about that!
the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Vardali » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:00 am

Manapa wrote:
Vardali wrote:
Manapa wrote:Where is the original press release to back her up?
She stated somewhere (Facebook!?) that it was a hardcopy handout. I am assuming that it was in Thai, though (as it was a Thai press conf).
Perhaps you can contact her or WPP if you want a copy of that.
I don't have to prove what she says, she does.

Well, you asked for the press release and I told you where I suggest you might find it, as it seems to be of relevance to you.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:24 am

Hi All

Another post on Bhante Sujato's blog at http://sujato.wordpress.com/
The Thai Sangha
January 8, 2010

Prof. Nidhi Eausivong

Article in Thai published in Matichon daily on Jan 4, 2010.

Dr Nidhi is a well known professor in the History Department of Chiengmai University. He is in his late 60s, and educated in the US. He is a foremost Thai academic, who has often providing guidance and advice for the government. For the first time he has come out very clearly on bhikkhuni issue. He is also the founder of Midnight University in Chiengmai.

Finally, there is no bhikkhuni Sangha in the Thai Sangha. One of the senior Venerable monks who ordained women in Australia has been expelled from the forest tradition branch of Wat Nong Pa Pong. The Thai Sangha announced that they do not recognize the ordination. Luckily, however, the said Venerable was not expelled from the Thai Sangha altogether.

The door to allow women to be ordained as bhikkhunis is closed.

However, other countries belonging to the same Theravada tradition are opening the door to welcome the bhikkhuni Sangha. There is already a bhikkhuni Sangha in Sri Lanka, and the Laos community may not object to bhikkhuni Sangha when the need for bhikkhunis arises, and that may be true also with the Sangha in Cambodia and Myanmar.

Will the Thai Sangha perform sanghakamma together with the bhikkhu Sangha from Sri Lanka, Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar if all those Sanghas already have bhikkhuni Sangha? Or they will accept to join with the bhikkhu Sangha but still refuse the bhikkhuni Sangha?

I am reminded of one particular case which happened in the reign of King Rama I. When the bhikkhus and samaneras from Laos came to further their study in Bangkok, they were not accepted as at the time of their ordination they did not pronounce Pali properly, in accordance with the Thai pronunciation. So the Thai bhikkhus insisted that the Lao monks must go through ordination again. Responding to this, the King said that there was no need for such ordination, as ordination arises from the intention. If the Laotian monks had a good intention there is no obstacle, and they are no less bhikkhus.

This was the spirit of the King who is the founder of the present dynasty. He was willing to adjust to new changes through understanding the underlying principle. Without understanding the underlying principle, the dynasty would not have lasted up to the present. Other institutions also will not survive without adjusting themselves to the new circumstances. When they cannot adjust we can imagine that the institution itself will not maintain its relevance to society for long.

In fact in the current case there is some ambiguity that the Thai Sangha could have used for its own benefit. Since the ordination of bhikkhunis in foreign countries took place under the Thai Sangha, the Sangha could have used this to test the beginnings of change without raising it as a controversial issue. No one loses face.

That is, they could have neither recognized nor resisted the ordination, allowing the case to prove itself for social reaction and acceptance.

To do this does not mean that the Sangha allows it to happen according to the worldly powers. We must not forget that in principle the bhikkhuni Sangha is part of the Sangha according to the Dhamma and Vinaya.

The fact that the Thai Sangha does not recognize the bhikkhuni Sangha is a result of a conservative interpretation of the Vinaya, instead of a more inclusive reading which would allow the fulfilment of the fourfold Buddhist community.

The Thai Sangha came into existence in 1908 according to the first Sangha Act. The purpose then was to utilize the Sangha as a tool to strengthen the absolute monarchy. Therefore the Thai Sangha arose to play the role to spread the Government power to rural areas, and also to control all the monks to have the same goal and practice under the Government.

At the same time, the Thai Sangha was under an able leadership of a well educated monk of the time, that is Somdej Krom Praya Vajirnanavarorosa, who later became the Sangharaja. He led the Thai Sangha to face the challenges of the time effectively. The Thai Sangha worked as a cornerstone to interpret the teaching of the Buddha in line with scientific reasoning, making Buddhism a worthy religion of Siam, one of the modern countries of that time.

In this modern world, the old challenges that were faced at that time have been replaced with emerging challenges for religions to prove their validity in the modern world.

Some of the new challenges of the contemporary world, to which each religion must be able to respond effectively, are:

1. Poverty. This has spread to a large area of humanity. There is a structural exploitation which has never been witnessed before in human history.

2. Environmental degradation. This is now so immense that humanity may not be able to survive.

3. Equality. A sharp and clear consciousness of equality between gender, race, and culture.

4. Peace. The need for long lasting peace on the foundation of sharing and justice. At the same time, people in a civilized world also seek inner peace.

If one should ask what the Thai Sangha has done to respond to these new challenges, the answer is that as a religious institution they have addressed none of these concerns.

We will have a better understanding if we take a look at religious movements around the world including many institutes within Buddhism.

Quite apart from the radical Liberation Theology, the Catholic Church seems to be sharply aware of the social issues of poverty and environmental degradation. These two issues have been the focus of statements and actions by consecutive Popes. The right for ordination for women priests both in the Catholic and Anglican Churches is a topic that is still argued worldwide. The religious institutions allow the issue to be in dialogue even when women priests have not been recognized.

Religious institutions play the role of balancing dictatorships and try to intervene positively in many international conflicts.

Coming back to the same old question, how is the Thai Sangha responding to the new challenges of the modern world?

It is difficult to maintain religion in this modern world. It is true that human beings are still the same, they still need to find the answer which they cannot find outside religion. But a religion cannot merely provide such answers, it must also provide an answer to the people who are still facing the reality of the world. Religion cannot only advise the poor to be diligent and work harder, for this is not sufficient to explain the widespread poverty all over the world.

Similarly it is not sufficient to tell women about gender equality by simply stating that both men and women have equal spiritual capacity to be enlightened, but women do not have the right to be ordained. Immediately it will raise another practical question, that is, men also do not need to be ordained, so why do we need the Sangha at all?

The Thai Sangha is one of the important institutions of the ‘right’ system in Thailand, and like other institutions, they are also facing new challenges of the modern world. So far none of them have been able to adjust to meet the challenges. I have written about this many times in the case of capitalism, political parties, political ideology, moral system, educational system, culture, etc.

The ‘right’ system has been successful in the past because it has the flexibility to adjust, and we had wise men to remind us and provide ideological foundation.

Can the wisdom of the ‘right’ express itself only in the color of the shirt?
With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:26 am

Hi All

And yet another post on Bhante Sujato's blog at http://sujato.wordpress.com/
From Prachathai by Surapot Thaweesak
January 8, 2010

Here is another article giving a Thai perspective on the bhikkhuni ordination, from http://www.prachathai.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Buddhist circles have recently received important news. The Sangha of Wat Nong Pa Pong in Ubon Rajathani province announced they were expelling Bodhinyana Monastery of Perth, Western Australia from its membership. This is because the Sangha of Bodhinyana performed bhikkhuni ordination. From now on Bodhinyana Monastery will not be a member of the Ajahn Chah circle of monasteries, and will no longer be supported by the Department of National Buddhist Affairs and the Council of Elders.

The reason behind the expulsion is that ordination of bhikkhunis is against the order of the Sangharaja Krom Luang Jinavornsirivatna of 1928 in which he forbade the Sangha in Thailand to give ordination to women. The Sangharaja’s order was re-affirmed in the meetings of the Council of Elders in 1984 and 1987.

The author is not surprised that the Thai Sangha should punish the Sangha of Bodhinyana Monastery by expelling them, and also I am not surprised that the Sangha of the Bodhinyana should decide to go ahead with the ordination of the bhikkhunis knowing well that it is against the Order and would incur punishment from the Thai Sangha.

I am not surprised at the punishment because it is a familiar technique for the Thai Sangha to punish a group of people who think differently by making them ‘the other’. It is the same technique used on the ‘Santi Asok’ group, and tried unsuccessfully with the ‘Dhammakaya’ group.

I am not surprised that the Bodhinyana Sangha went ahead regardless, as the stand on bhikkhunis which the Sangha of Bodhinyana has taken up is in line with the social value of respect for gender equality, and also emphasizes the spirit of the Buddha’s same message of equality.

Bearing in mind the spirit of the Buddha and the right to gender equality in contemporary society there is no reason to follow the stern ruling of the Thai Sangha.

One who has some understanding of Buddhism knows that originally the Buddha did not allow women to be ordained. But when Ananda asked if women were capable of equal spiritual attainment, the Buddha confirmed that they did, and for that reason he allowed women to join the Sangha.

We may call that this the reason ‘according to the true nature of humanity’, which affirms the truth that men and women both have equal potential to be enlightened. Thus everyone should have the same opportunity to study and practice towards enlightenment.

However, the status of being ‘ordained’ in Buddhism, apart from being a status to allow individuals to study and practice towards enlightenment, is also a ‘social status’ that depends on social and cultural context. Therefore when the Buddha gave permission for women to be ordained there were also tight conditions as seen in the eight garudhammas, starting with the rule: ‘A bhikkhuni ordained even for 100 years will pay respect to a monk ordained but that day.’

This reflects the social context within Indian society which did not recognize gender equality. In Brahmanistic culture not only were women not allowed to be ordained, they were not allowed even to read the Veda. But in Buddhist culture women were given opportunity to study and to practice towards enlightenment since the time of the conception of Buddhism.

Therefore when the Buddha allowed women to become bhikkhunis, in spite of the fact that women have the same spiritual potential to become enlightened like men, there was also the social context of the time where there was no gender equality to be taken into consideration.

But now Buddhism is in the modern world, which accepts and recognizes more of the equality between men and women. If we accept the reason ‘according to the true nature of humanity’, to accept ordination of women in the present social context would be much easier than in the Buddha’s time.

But the reaction of the Thai Sangha to the Sangha of Bodhinyana Monastery (and to Bhikkhuni Dhammananda few years earlier) reflects how the Thai Sangha is not ready to face any new challenge. Not to mention the new challenges which come with the globalization in economics, society, or politics, even when it comes to an old challenge like bhikkhuni ordination, the Thai Sangha can only make them ‘the other’. They push their own people who are more progressive to become ‘the other’. This is not solving the problem but pushing it away.

From now on, the monks who remain warmly preserved in the arms of the Thai Sangha and the Department of National Buddhist Affairs will be only those monks who are good at making amulets and engaged in business under the name of Buddhism, taking money from the public by various means. These monks in fact are ‘the others’ from the true teaching of the Buddha, but become the same flesh and bone with the Thai Sangha. Meanwhile the Sangha who are truly following the teaching and the spirit of the Buddha are being pushed out and become more and more ‘the other’.

In fact, if we look closely at the case of Bodhinyana Monastery having ordained bhikkhunis and being pushed out, the problem does not lie with the Sangha of Bodhinyana Monastery but with the Thai Sangha. It is an attempt to cover up the true reason for ordaining women as accepted and initiated by the Buddha. It is the problem of adjusting and changing to accommodate co-existence in the modern world.

Let me speak very frankly: this is a problem of isolating oneself from reason and truth in the modern world. Eventually it will be a case of missing the boat when the Thai Sangha is not able to adjust Buddhist teaching to accommodate and benefit the modern lifestyle. The Buddhist leaders the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh both emphasise that ‘the world still has Buddhism to free society from suffering.’
With Metta
Bill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:09 pm

Vardali wrote:
Vardali wrote:
Manapa wrote:Where is the original press release to back her up?
She stated somewhere (Facebook!?) that it was a hardcopy handout. I am assuming that it was in Thai, though (as it was a Thai press conf).
Perhaps you can contact her or WPP if you want a copy of that.
Well, you asked for the press release and I told you where I suggest you might find it, as it seems to be of relevance to you.
looks like there were crossed wires there! I wasn't asking for the press release, but rather where her proof is, last I checked journalist integrity wasn't based on heart felt pleas of being correct, but evidence, and the evidence available doesn't suggest she was accurate.

I am waiting for a response from a couple of places about the actual press release, from before your suggestion.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by appicchato » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:34 pm

I've been biting my tongue through much of this thread due to some really inane statements...but I will say that Sanitsuda Ekachai is a stand-up journalist who is a beacon of light in a dark night writing about this particular situation, and many others...

Before casting aspersions some might consider getting a (better) grip...

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:02 pm

Hello Bhante,

This is a discussion forum ~ obviously all posters don't hold identical opinions and view. Personal disparagement of the understanding of others is, of course, another matter. So ~ you don't agree with the Forest Sangha viewpoint? Is that just the Thai Sangha or the Worldwide Forest Sangha?

metta,
Chris
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