Where does thoughts comes from ?

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sentinel
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Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:59 pm

Greetings ,

Where does thoughts actually comes from ?
What is thought actually ? How does it differs from perception ?


:thanks:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:17 pm

Hi James,

You might want to have a look at this:
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.
(and the same with regard to the other senses).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

sentinel
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:17 pm
Hi James,

You might want to have a look at this:
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.
(and the same with regard to the other senses).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Hi Sam , thanks .

Below is Chinese translation .
學友們!緣眼與色生起眼識,三者的會合而有觸,以觸為緣而有受,感受則認知;認知則尋思;尋思則妄想;由於妄想之故,對過去、未來、現在能被眼識知之色以想與名稱之妄想襲擊男子。

So , here is translation .

what one's feels one cognises , what one's cognises one ponders , what one's ponders one proliferates .

Does above both same ?
:buddha1:

santa100
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by santa100 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Ven. Bodhi's version and the Pali source for further info.:
MN 18 wrote:What one feels(vedana), that one perceives(sanna). What one perceives, that one thinks about(vitakka). What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates(papanca)

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Sam Vara
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:21 pm

As far as I can see, they seem to be saying the same thing. For interest, here is Sue Hamilton's "free translation, in order to draw out the meaning":

“Seeing occurs when there is
contact between an eye and [visible] forms, accompanied by consciousness; this gives rise to
feelings, which are then identified; and what is thus identified one reflects on and makes
manifold.”

She specifically identifies thinking with the process of separating something out, making it an individual "thing" for oneself.

http://repository.uwtsd.ac.uk/419/1/RERC2-024-1.pdf

And thank you to Santa100 for the BB stuff.

SarathW
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:54 pm

"Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Thoughts are the result of Dependent Origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:06 am

Greetings ,

What I am asking is how the thought came about ? Take for example , says , a 4 months old baby were shown an object , says , a tv remote controller , now , the baby look at it , that is eyes consciousness arises , the feeling perhaps may arise (neutral) , but , No Perceiving occurs because this is the first time experience , therefore , No Thought arises !

Now , Perceiving occurs if there is a Re~cognition of it , hence , Thought was absence in this case .

So , Thought came about with Remembering about it , which is an old experience . Without the Reminder there is No Thought .

:namaste:
:buddha1:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:21 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:06 am
Greetings ,

What I am asking is how the thought came about ? Take for example , says , a 4 months old baby were shown an object , says , a tv remote controller , now , the baby look at it , that is eyes consciousness arises , the feeling perhaps may arise (neutral) , but , No Perceiving occurs because this is the first time experience , therefore , No Thought arises !

Now , Perceiving occurs if there is a Re~cognition of it , hence , Thought was absence in this case .

So , Thought came about with Remembering about it , which is an old experience . Without the Reminder there is No Thought .

:namaste:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Perception

"'Perception, perception': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'perception'?"

"'It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."
all that arises at sense doors is contact, when there is contact there can be delineation of feeling, perception etc

sentinel
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:20 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:21 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Perception

"'Perception, perception': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'perception'?"

"'It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."


all that arises at sense doors is contact, when there is contact there can be delineation of feeling, perception etc
Here's Google definition .

Perception :

1.
the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses .

2.
the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information .

3.
the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli.


What I think is today science and technology are far more advanced as compared to thousand years ago and that the way informations and knowledges today helps us understand better the processes of this human body than before .
:buddha1:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:10 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:20 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:21 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Perception

"'Perception, perception': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'perception'?"

"'It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."


all that arises at sense doors is contact, when there is contact there can be delineation of feeling, perception etc
Here's Google definition .

Perception :

1.
the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses .

2.
the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information .

3.
the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli.


What I think is today science and technology are far more advanced as compared to thousand years ago and that the way informations and knowledges today helps us understand better the processes of this human body than before .
You can think that. I think you are on the wrong forum if you think that google definitions apply to translations of Sanna and Vinnana.

Or maybe it is the right forum, my point is that you need to change you understanding of yourself and the enviroment according to the sutta, that includes language. Not the other way around.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:40 am

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sentinel
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:25 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:10 am



You can think that. I think you are on the wrong forum if you think that google definitions apply to translations of Sanna and Vinnana.

Or maybe it is the right forum, my point is that you need to change you understanding of yourself and the enviroment according to the sutta, that includes language. Not the other way around.
This is against the spirit of Kalama sutta , one has to investigate and confirmed the text before
Accepting it .
:buddha1:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Where does thoughts comes from ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:27 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:25 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:10 am



You can think that. I think you are on the wrong forum if you think that google definitions apply to translations of Sanna and Vinnana.

Or maybe it is the right forum, my point is that you need to change you understanding of yourself and the enviroment according to the sutta, that includes language. Not the other way around.
This is against the spirit of Kalama sutta , one has to investigate and confirmed the text before
Accepting it .
Well it should go both ways but here you are appealing to authority of Google.

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