If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Will
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Will » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:37 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:23 am
What Sarath is in this life is mainly based on what kamma "Henry" (or whoever named) made in the past life.
But I have the free will in this life to be happy here and now but I do not have the option to change my next life.
Depending on if your happiness now is based on living a solid (but not perfect) Sila life, or one based on worldly cravings mainly, that nexus or web of thoughts, words & deeds will definitely change your next life.

What we are now is what our past lives kamma shaped and what our present life's additional kamma is, helps shape the next one.

One does not have to obsess about kamma & rebirth, but I do not see any value in avoiding the truth of them.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:49 am

one based on worldly cravings mainly, that nexus or web of thoughts,
I am not sure a person who based on worldly craving will enjoy a happy life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:25 pm
the pain and suffering would be just as real.
Even if I become an Arahant in this life the pain and suffering still will be in this world.
The mind state of an arhat is free from loba , dosa , moha is of tranquility and equanimity ( with upekka ). As they take up ashta loka darma, labo profit, alobo loss, ayaso defamation, yasoca fame, ninda blames, prasansa praise , sukanca happiness , dukan grief eqally without attachment ( upadana ) they arhats do not suffer from pain or greef in the mind.

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm
the tears we had shed since the unknown beginning of our samsara the tears we had shed is greater than the four great oceans by bereavements of our loved ones and other dukka.
My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am
SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm
the tears we had shed since the unknown beginning of our samsara the tears we had shed is greater than the four great oceans by bereavements of our loved ones and other dukka.
My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
You could more charitably read this as "If we believe this, then we believe it on faith".

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
If I am reborn, it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?
If I take the one life model at least I know that if I live tomorrow it is better to save for tomorrow.
I know I have this body tomorrow and I can give it food and shelter.
If I die and reborn there is know that assurance.
If I am reborn it is a different aggregate altogether.
For instance how I was I in last birth is no bearing on me.

In Sri Lanka sometimes we have to wait for about ten years to get fruits from certain plants.
But we plant them for the future generation.
That makes sense for me.

What really matters is to be happy in this life.
In any case, even with these examples, there may still be some doubt on the matter, so it might be helpful to conclude with a story:
Tit Porngn went to visit the Venerable Abbot of the nearby monastery. At one point, he asked:
“Eh, Luang Por, the Buddha taught that everything is notself, and is without an owner – there is no-one who commits kamma and no-one who receives its results. If that’s the case, then I can go out and hit somebody over the head or even kill them, or do anything I like, because there is no-one committing kamma and no-one receiving its results.”
No sooner had Tit Porng finished speaking, when the Abbot’s walking stick, concealed somewhere unknown to Tit Porng, swung down like a flash. Tit Porng could hardly get his arm up fast enough to ward off the blow. Even so, the walking stick struck squarely in the middle of his arm, giving
it a good bruise.
Clutching his sore arm, Tit Porng said, “Luang Por! Why did you do that?” His voice trembled with the anger that was welling up inside him.
“Oh! What’s the matter?” the Abbot asked offhandedly.
“Why, you hit me! That hurts!”
The Abbot, assuming a tone of voice usually reserved for sermons, slowly murmured: “There is kamma but no-one creating it. There are results of kamma, but no-one receiving them. There is feeling, but no-one experiencing it. There is pain, but no-one in pain … He who tries to use the law of notself for his own selfish purposes is not freed of self; he who clings to not-self is one who clings to self. He does not really know not-self. He who clings to the idea that there is no-one who creates kamma must also cling to the idea that there is one who is in pain. He does not really know that there is noone who creates kamma and no-one who experiences pain.”

The moral of this story is: if you want to say “there is noone who creates kamma,” you must first learn how to stop saying “Ouch!”

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/good_evil_beyond.pdf


:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:10 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
You could more charitably read this as "If we believe this, then we believe it on faith".
It's not about charitable interpretations. It's about the consequences of what Glenn Wallis and the speculative non-Buddhists call "the buddhistic decision". Namely, many people, when they convert to Buddhism, make "the buddhistic decision", a kind of leap to faith, a leap with which they take for granted that what Buddhism teaches is true. And it is only afterwards that they try to make sense of this decision, hence so much focus on the details, so many questions about doctrine, trying to understand what it actually is that one has decided for, but never questioning the decision itself. That's how there are so many self-proclaimed Buddhists who have huge problems with some of the core doctrines of Buddhism. Hence my earlier reference to the broader context within which one is asking one's questions, and noting how one's efforts can have the nature of an externally imposed compulsion.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:08 pm

Many can't face the fact of rebirth.

A Buddhist is someone who faces the fact.
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:10 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am
SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm

My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
You could more charitably read this as "If we believe this, then we believe it on faith".
In Mahasaccaka sutta MN35 Lord budda explains that when his mind is unblemished and his mind clear he remembered his past lives and explains it further. Any other person can develop pupbenivasanussati gnana with proper meditation which enables one to develop the mindset to remember the past. No one can doubt this fact when compared to the truths stated by lord budda, and belief in budda need not be faith, but an actual study.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:43 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm

It's not about charitable interpretations.
Well, it could be if you felt a bit more charitable.

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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:50 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:43 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm
It's not about charitable interpretations.
Well, it could be if you felt a bit more charitable.
It's not clear why you're making this about the charitableness of interpretation.
I'm saying that there's a lot of problems one would not have if one had not made the initial leap to faith in a religion.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:03 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:50 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:43 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm
It's not about charitable interpretations.
Well, it could be if you felt a bit more charitable.
It's not clear why you're making this about the charitableness of interpretation.
I'm saying that there's a lot of problems one would not have if one had not made the initial leap to faith in a religion.
Had you thought that Sarath meant what I thought he meant, you could have saved yourself the bother of thinking that his faith presented him with any problems.

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:03 pm
Had you thought that Sarath meant what I thought he meant, you could have saved yourself the bother of thinking that his faith presented him with any problems.
But it is presenting him problems. Hence all the threads and questions and not moving from the spot for years.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:21 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm

But it is presenting him problems. Hence all the threads and questions and not moving from the spot for years.
OK, you help him, and I'll watch. I'm assuming that Sarath is Sri Lankan Buddhist by birth, so we'll see how well he takes to "speculative non-Buddhism"...

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:50 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:21 pm
OK, you help him, and I'll watch.
Uh. I'm not presuming to be able to help. I was exploring what would happen if I point a person to the context of their question.
I'm assuming that Sarath is Sri Lankan Buddhist by birth, so we'll see how well he takes to "speculative non-Buddhism"...
Speculative non-Buddhism is nowhere near as fancy as some think it is.
:toast:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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