Nibbana and nihilism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DNS » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:38 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:22 am
As you've rejected and embraced annihilationism.
How have I embraced annihilationism? I said BB refused to follow Wallace's argument of an unconditioned consciousness, but BB rejects the extinction view. I like BB's position, but no where did I adopt the extinction or nihilist views as BB's views are not nihilist.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:39 am

Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DNS » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:45 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:39 am
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1
Kevatta Sutta
Bhikkhu Bodhi answers that in the interview:
BB: What is clear to me, on the basis of my reading of the entire Sutta Pitaka (except some later
books), is that nibbāna is never identified with consciousness or a state of mind (citta, mano,
viññāṇa). In approaching the verse you cite from the Kevaddha Sutta, I would apply a principle
that Ven. Nyanaponika taught me, namely: “Don’t erect interpretations of the Dhamma based on
a single passage, particularly one in verse. Always assume that the repeated statements in the
expository prose texts are the ones that set forth the Buddha’s definitive position and that any
passages in verse that seem to depart from that doctrinal position, if correctly understood, would
actually turn out to be consistent with it.”

BB: That is what Ven. Nyanaponika meant. He was arguing against some who select a single
passage (usually an obscure verse) and then build up an entire interpretation on its basis, even
when their view contradicts the repetitive prose texts.
This certainly applies to the Kevaddha Sutta. The sutta, if you look at it carefully, does
not explicitly state that this “signless, boundless, all-luminous consciousness” is nibbāna itself.
I don’t interpret it as being nibbāna itself, and I do agree with you that nibbāna is an
unconditioned reality, without production, without alteration, without passing (see AN 3:47, I
152), a real dhamma that one actually sees and experiences with the attainment of path and
fruition. If that is so, it is only natural to inquire into the nature of the enlightened consciousness
that experiences that dhamma.
Some contemporary interpreters of the Dhamma advance the position that nibbāna is an
unconditioned dimension of consciousness, but to maintain it they either have to insert words
into their rendering of the verse that are not there in the Pali or construe the verse in a way that
cannot be pegged to the actual wording of the text.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:51 am

Some contemporary interpreters of the Dhamma advance the position that nibbāna is an
unconditioned dimension of consciousness

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DCM » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:34 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:23 am
:focus:
DCM wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pm
This is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the aim of the spiritual quest? Nothingness?
Hi DCM. My suggestion is it might be better for you to firmly be grounded the basics. The basics are the Pali suttas appear to refer to two types of Nibbana; where the 1st type is a here-&-now Nibbana that is the 'end of greed, hatred & delusion'; 'cessation of suffering'; 'highest happiness', etc. If the 1st type of here-&-now Nibbana is not attained, the 2nd type cannot be attained therefore it is probably best to focus on what the 1st type of Nibbana is.
This was said by the Lord…

Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44

Yes, fair enough, but if the final goal is extinction, it seems to be the annihilation of being. It may seem I am holding an eternalist view and craving for some existence in Nibbana, but I am trying to understand the difference between an Arahants death, and the death of a being according to the materialists view, where they both seem to mean extinction, annihilation. I know the Aaraht destroys the taints and according to Buddhist view the materialist will take re birth in Samsara, but the materialists would still say the Arahant is annihilated.

I do have it that this may be a waste of time, and I should focus on suffering and DO, which I am, but I also find this quite interesting. Without self view of course this would all make sense, but until then ......

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by boundless » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 am

DCM wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:34 am
...
Hi DCM, all.

I thought that these two links may be interesting:

https://www.academia.edu/1417436/Nibb%C ... Abhidhamma a study by Lance Cousins.

https://suttacentral.net/en/kv1.6, an excrept of the Kathavatthu (Abhidhamma) where Nibbana is even described as "eternal".

Again, I try to not think too much about it, but IMO the "extinction" view seems a minority view among the early buddhist schools.

:anjali:

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by Zom » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:37 pm

This is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the aim of the spiritual quest? Nothingness?
Strange question from someone who's been studying Buddhism for decades. The aim is, obviously, the cessation of suffering (and no, not eternal happiness, eternal heavens, eternal well-being or something like that). :coffee:

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:42 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:37 pm
The aim is, obviously, the cessation of suffering (and no, not eternal happiness, eternal heavens, eternal well-being or something like that).

Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 pm

Nibbæna is neither past nor future nor present;
It is neither produced nor not produced nor to be produced,
Yet it exists, and may be realized.
~ Miln 323

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:06 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:42 pm
Zom wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:37 pm
The aim is, obviously, the cessation of suffering (and no, not eternal happiness, eternal heavens, eternal well-being or something like that).

Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One
it seems to me like
he just said there is no before and after, no multitude in Nibbana as in that "eternal" in the plain meaning of the word does not apply. he did not misrepresent anything per se unless on ignores the "eternal x,y,z" part of his statement (not a natural/warranted assumption), to me it(statement) is quite plain in meaning that it is not something eternal in full meaning of term as in implying infinite duration, time, change from before to after.

If one says Nibbana is eternal happiness, it is not right as it stands alone and "unchanging" or analogue characteristic should be added to effectively avoid postulating Time,Duration&Change. If the listener is already clear in his mind about what regards time in relation to the concept of Nibbana, then one can get away with "incomplete descripitions" because there is no danger of misunderstanding.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by equilibrium » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:17 pm

MN22:.....
“There can be, monk,” said the Blessed One. "In that case, monk, someone does not have this view: ‘The universe is the Self… eternally the same shall I abide in that very condition.’ He then hears a Perfect One expounding the Teaching for the removal of all grounds for views, of all prejudices, obsessions, dogmas and biases; for the stilling of all (kamma-) processes, for the relinquishing of all substrata (of existence), for the extirpation of craving, for dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana.
He then does not think:
‘I shall be annihilated, I shall be destroyed! No longer shall I exist!’ Hence he does not grieve, is not depressed, does not lament; he does not beat his breast nor does he weep, and no dejection befalls him. Thus, monk, is there absence of anxiety about unrealities, in the internal.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:18 pm

the Everlasting, (Dhuva)
the Undisintegrating, (Apalokita)

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:30 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:18 pm
the Everlasting, (Dhuva)
the Undisintegrating, (Apalokita)
The way you post it is not at all clear to me what the heck you are talking about and this goes for most of your posts on the matter.
How about you make a coherent statement of more than 10 words about nibbana, in your own words and as you understand it.
Because if you are not willing to do that or willing to be questioned on the matter i think it you should avoid categorically calling Slander.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:34 pm

I'm saying Nirvana is Everlasting

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:38 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:34 pm
I'm saying Nirvana is Everlasting
what exactly do you mean by everlasting then? saying lasts forever here is not acceptable answer of course...
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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