Is it wrong to pray to the Buddha?

[No_Mind]

I know but sometimes I like to believe in Dhammakaya and .. that Buddha(s) still exists somewhere .. not as we know of them but their essence.

No_Mind, that is not what the Buddha taught.

Kevin

Malcolm won't be happy with you Virgo.

Same thought crossed my mind

[Virgo]

Malcolm won't be happy with you Virgo.

I think you have my priorities skewed.

Kevin

[Sam Vara]

I thought this was a Buddhist form. My bad.

It is a Buddhist forum, but your "bad" apparently consists of no more than thinking that everything that is posted should be approved by the Buddha. "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).

[mikenz66]

I thought this was a Buddhist form. My bad.

It is a Buddhist forum, but your "bad" apparently consists of no more than thinking that everything that is posted should be approved by the Buddha. "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).

I think that when we have a thread that uses the word "pray", then the clarification that Sam Vara gave about what "pray" can actually mean in a Christian context (i.e. not necessarily just asking for favours) is very relevant.

It's very common for Thai people to use the English word "pray" (when they are conversing in English) for all manner of activities: chanting, bowing to the Buddha statues, and so on. I don't think it's the best choice of words, but we're stuck with it.



Mike

[DNS]

No but a vast number of Buddhists believe in it albeit from a different sect
Trikaya

Correct, there is prayer, but more so in Mahayana, not Theravada. As others have noted, it depends on how you define prayer. If it includes recollection of the Tathagata, reverence for the teacher and teachings, offering flowers, incense, prostrations, then Theravada does that too. However, prayer as in asking for help, asking for forgiveness, then no, not in Theravada.

As I have noted in some previous posts Hinduism has more in common with Mahayana than Theravada. And Jainism is the non-buddhist path most in common with Theravada.

[ryanM]

I know but sometimes I like to believe in Dhammakaya and .. that Buddha(s) still exists somewhere .. not as we know of them but their essence.

Their essence is the four elements, right?

[thepea]

Praying to Buddha is the root cause of the entirety of universal suffering.
It is the opposite of the noble 8-fold path.

So if someone has never heard of the Buddha, and therefore can't pray to him, they can't suffer? Or did some poor misguided person once pray to the Buddha, therefore unleashing suffering upon the rest of the otherwise blameless universe as if by original sin?

I’m going by this definition of prayer
“wish or hope strongly for a particular outcome or situation.”

This is craving, doesn’t matter if you pray to Buddha or baby Jesus it’s craving and it’s the root cause of suffering,

If you have another definition then perhaps we’re talking about something different?

[DooDoot]

The prayer usually is "Wise one, Awakened one, namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa, I bow before you .. I am a small human being with no great understanding of this world and Dhamma ..

Bless me so that I may acquire wisdom, give me strength so that I may be alive long enough to acquire wisdom .." and so on

Imo

Its wrong to pray to the Buddha when the teachings provided in the suttas have not been studied & learned thoroughly.

Its right to pray to the Buddha when the teachings are learned & there is a significant problem to solve by using those teachings.

[perkele]

Imo

Its wrong to pray to the Buddha when the teachings provided in the suttas have not been studied & learned thoroughly.

Its right to pray to the Buddha when the teachings are learned & there is a significant problem to solve by using those teachings.

But what is the reason for this opinion? Why do you think that in the first case it is right and in the second it is wrong?

I often notice that I have "learnt" a lot of those teachings in the suttas, but do not practice accordingly. In such a case, would prayer be right or helpful?

[DooDoot]

I often notice that I have "learnt" a lot of those teachings in the suttas, but do not practice accordingly. In such a case, would prayer be right or helpful?

Thanks. Your question is not accurately representing what I posted. What I posted is if (for some reason) you are in trouble, you can pray to Buddha for help, which will result in learned teachings popping into your head. I suppose prayer here is similar to mindfulness & the wisdom that pops into your head is similar to sampajanna. If you pray: "Help me Buddha", the Buddha might reply: "Perkele, my child, its impermanent; its not-self; there's nothing you can do about it". But if you have never studied the suttas, the Buddha won't reply like this. Instead, if you pray to the Buddha, the Buddha might reply: "Its your True Atman; Krishna will save you; Chant Hare Krisnha; Jesus loves you". Its like praying to the Buddha, begging to win the lottery or asking for a good financial investment. If you don't read the suttas, you might not know the Buddha does not grant these financial favours. The wisdom is in the suttas therefore it is probably better to simply read the suttas than to pray like in Christianity: "Bless me so that I may acquire wisdom".

James 1:5
New International Version (NIV)
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

[perkele]

What need is there for divine intervention...

Dhammapada;
“Oneself, indeed, is one's own protector.
One does, indeed [make] one's own destiny.
Therefore, control yourself
As a merchant does a fine horse.”

Probably not so much for direct intervention, and I don't know what kind of intervention by beings from higher realms is actually possible.

Certainly there cannot be a direct intervention by others in one's own karma, one's own action, and it is one's own action by which one goes to good or bad destinations, as I think the suttas clearly teach us. Hence the repeated emphasis on relying on one's own effort. That is all well and good.

But as long as we are deluded, trying to associate with the wise and seeking their guidance is something the Buddha recommended; making a mental effort to do so, even if it starts out with only imagination seems like a good mental habit.
IMO, we have to start with imagination for everything. There is no way around it, as I think the Dhammapada teaches as well:

All phenomena are preceded by mind,
Mind is their master, they are produced by mind.
If somebody speaks or acts
With a corrupted mind,
Hence suffering follows him,
Like the wheel the foot of the bearing animal.

(from here, modified by me)

So it is good to produce wholesome and positive images in the mind, produce good and wholesome imaginations for every effort and aspiration that follows.

After all, the Buddha also recommended these as a topics for recollection:

[1] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

/.../

[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with /.../, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning ... generosity ... discernment they were endowed with /.../ the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas.

/.../

It is interesting that in the sixth topic of recollection the Buddha recommends recollecting the devas in order to compare oneself to them in regards to wholesome qualities which one should have developed, presupposing that one actually has developed wholesome qualities of that sort to draw from. I guess for many (including me) this can often rather lead to perceiving a lack in one's own qualities, rather than reassurance. But the main point seems to be that the devas (or their previous actions which led them to be reborn as devas) should simply be viewed as to be emulated as role-models, rather than as saviours of sorts who can intervene and help.

Regarding imagination, and imagining to speak/pray/communicate directly to the Buddha, I think it is more realistic (and thereby IMO a more helpful imagination) to mentally address instead those many devas who must be out there that have gained a sense of Dhamma but are not yet tatagatha - out of reach (like the Buddha, I think there is no way to reach him anymore):

In[1] ancient times when seafaring merchants put to sea in ships, they took with them a bird to sight land. When the ship was out of sight of land, they released the bird; and it flew eastward and westward, northward and southward, upward and all around. And if the bird saw no land, it returned to the ship; but if the bird sighted land nearby, it was truly gone.[2]

[2]The word used here for "truly gone" is tathagatako (translated by E.M. Hare in the PTS edition as "gone for good"), and this story helps us considerably in understanding how the Buddha used the epithet "Tathagata" to describe himself.

[perkele]

Thanks for explaining what you meant. Better when imagination is well-informed, so that it turns more into mindfulness of things one knows realistically to be helpful.

I was more thinking of prayer as an actual means to try and reach other beings out there who might hear and compassionately intervene in some way (or even only listen); which I would not regard as impossible, although that seems not to be something the Buddha particularly recommended.

The imagination that there must be some devas out there who know the teachings and the Buddha and the way out of all this mess, who can see from afar, and might for whatever reason even come to look at poor me, who is in trouble, and may have some ways to compassionately guide me towards the light, towards better ways and more helpful circumstances, has been helpful to me at some point. Not sure how much of that was only auto-suggestion for not feeling so lost and alone anymore and more confident self-motivation based on that.

[alfa]

I thought this was a Buddhist form. My bad.

It is a Buddhist forum, but your "bad" apparently consists of no more than thinking that everything that is posted should be approved by the Buddha. "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).

I think that when we have a thread that uses the word "pray", then the clarification that Sam Vara gave about what "pray" can actually mean in a Christian context (i.e. not necessarily just asking for favours) is very relevant.

It's very common for Thai people to use the English word "pray" (when they are conversing in English) for all manner of activities: chanting, bowing to the Buddha statues, and so on. I don't think it's the best choice of words, but we're stuck with it.



Mike

That may be, merely pointing out that in the Buddhist context, prayer of any kind is useless, isn't it? Buddha encouraged people to practice right speech, right effort, etc.

[mikenz66]

Recollection of the Buddha is recommended by the Buddha. And that could be interpreted as prayer in a some sense.

Mike

[sentinel]

It is a Buddhist forum, but your "bad" apparently consists of no more than thinking that everything that is posted should be approved by the Buddha. "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).

I think that when we have a thread that uses the word "pray", then the clarification that Sam Vara gave about what "pray" can actually mean in a Christian context (i.e. not necessarily just asking for favours) is very relevant.

It's very common for Thai people to use the English word "pray" (when they are conversing in English) for all manner of activities: chanting, bowing to the Buddha statues, and so on. I don't think it's the best choice of words, but we're stuck with it.



Mike

That may be, merely pointing out that in the Buddhist context, prayer of any kind is useless, isn't it? Buddha encouraged people to practice right speech, right effort, etc.

If you don't mind I say , say if you at 4th stage terminally ill cancer patient and really in sufferings , and people came to you and preach to you practise right this right that , would you able to accept and do the practice ?!
Especially if you are not a well versed in the dhamma person .