What is the sixth sense base ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
justindesilva
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:46 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 am
justindesilva wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:12 pm
chownah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:03 am
It seems that one's state of mind is strongly influenced by one's brain chemistry.

It seems that what thoughts arise in the mind is strongly influenced by brain chemistry.

It seems that the contents of dreams strongly correlate to events in the brain.

It seems that the arising of memory of things is strongly associated with certain activity in the brain.

chownah
The question in the post is regarding the sixth sense base. I do feel that then it is here all first 5 sense bases are with our corporeal body and is placed in the ear, nose, tongue, eyes and the tactile( skin). But where the sixth sense base is a matter of argument and is argued to be in the heart named as Hadaya vastu or another argues as this base being in the brain. The sixth organ named manendriya is not located anywhere specifically in the body but somewhere unspecified. The manendriya is believed to be in contact with the 7th vingnana and the eigth vingnana as alaya vingnana. The manendriya is mostly active in dreams and unconscious modes as alaya vingnana is connected with the subconscious mind.
I don't know what you are talking about....can you explain this in english?
chownah
Perhaps I should have given a better explanation of Manendriya and alaya vingnana.
as pancendriya are 5 sense organs the consciousness related with each indriya ( faculty) is based in relation to each faculty. But manendriya is the faculty of mind and the base of mind consciousness ( vingnana) is not specifically mentioned. The alaya vingnana is explained as the store house of past and karma. I have not found alaya vingnana explained in access to insight .

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:14 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:46 am
The alaya vingnana is explained as the store house of past and karma. I have not found alaya vingnana explained in access to insight .
I think this is Mahayana stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses
Buddha save me from new-agers!


Dinsdale
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:25 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:23 am
In regards to 6th being Arupa On what ground would it be called 6th sense base if there is no eye base, no nose etc?
"Buddhism and other Indian epistemologies[8][9] identify six "senses" as opposed to the Western identification of five. In Buddhism, "mind" denotes an internal sense organ which interacts with sense objects that include sense impressions, feelings, perceptions and volition."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana
Buddha save me from new-agers!

justindesilva
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:28 am

Salayatana vibanga sutta explains the six senses and the sixth sense as " intellect" sense. This sixth sense cognizes ideas of happiness unhappiness and equanimity. To understand this it is a must that one has to read Salayatana vibanga sutta available on access to insight.

Saengnapha
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:50 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:02 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:51 pm
Greetings ,

According to sutta , the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects .
Therefore , what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?
Hi James, according to tradition it is a small rūpa in the heart.
best
Kevin
Virgo, this tallies with my own experience of a 'seat' of consciousness felt in the area of the heart radiating. Yogacara schools talk about the 6th sense base as being the alaya vijnana, the storehouse of consciousness. I'm not sure if they associate this with the heart, though.

From an earlier post detailing Maha Bua on the heart:
I found this interesting commentary on brain vs. consciousness by Ajahn Maha Boowa
The brain, for instance, is a lump of matter. The brain is merely an instrument that human consciousness uses. When the citta enters into a deep state of calm and concentration, the conscious awareness that is normally diffused throughout the body simultaneously converges from all areas of the body into one central point of focus at the middle of the chest. The knowing quality manifests itself prominently at that point. It does not emanate from the brain. Although the faculties of memorization and learning arise in association with the brain, direct knowledge of the truth does not. Step by step, beginning with the initial stages of samadhi practice, progress in meditation is experienced and understood in the heart—and only in the heart. This is where the truth lies, and the meditator who practices correctly knows this each step of the way. When it comes to understanding the true nature of all phenomena, the brain is not a factor—it is not useful at all. The citta’s serene and radiant qualities are experienced at the heart. They emanate conspicuously from that point. All of the citta’s myriad aspects, from the grossest to the most subtle, are experienced clearly from this central spot. And when all defiling influences are finally eliminated from the citta, it is there that they all cease.


In some schools of Mahayana, they also talk about an area around the heart, not the physical heart. In Jeffrey Hopkins book 'Meditation On Emptiness', one of the meditations focuses on the appearance of the 'I' and the analysis of it. A parallel instruction in Vedanta also stresses the heart:
In Vedanta is often said to be the size of the thumb and
located in the 'heart'. In Vedanta the jiva is to be merged with
the infinite self, Brahman, and in Buddhism the appearance of a
concrete I is analyzed, found to be non-existent, and overcome,
resulting eventually in a direct realization of emptiness in which
the subject, the wisdom consciousness, is merged with its object,
emptiness, like fresh water poured into fresh water.

santa100
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by santa100 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:59 pm

James Tan wrote:Hi , we are use to take the nama as something belongs to of non matter . But , could it be possible nama is Unseen matter!
Sort of like Dark Matter? While modern physics doesn't clearly distinguish nama/rupa since matter and energy are interchangeable medium, the Theravada description of the 6th sense base limits it to within the mental scope. Ven. Bodhi's note in "Connected Discourses":
On first consideration, it would seem that the six internal and external sense bases should be understood simply as the six sense faculties and their objects, with the term ayatana, base, having the sense of origin or source. Though many suttas lend support to this supposition, the Theravada exegetical tradition, beginning already from the Abhidhamma period, understands the six pairs of bases as a complete scheme of classification capable of accommodating all the factors of existence mentioned in the Nik›yas. This conception of the six bases probably originated from the Sabba Sutta (35:23), in which the Buddha says that the six pairs of bases are “the all” apart from which nothing at all exists. To make the six bases capable of literally incorporating everything, the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pitaka defines the mind base (manayatana) as including all classes of consciousness, and the mental phenomena base (dhammayatana) as including the other three mental aggregates, subtle nonsensuous types of form, and even the unconditioned element, Nibbana (see Vibh 70–73).

SarathW
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 am

the Theravada description of the 6th sense base limits it to within the mental scope.
Does this mean Dependent Origination is only about mental phenomena?
ie: When it says Salayatana means only mental not physical?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:15 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 am
the Theravada description of the 6th sense base limits it to within the mental scope.
Does this mean Dependent Origination is only about mental phenomena?
ie: When it says Salayatana means only mental not physical?
No, notice there're 2 separate terms: Manaytana/the mind base, the 6th of the Six sense bases/Salayatana (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind).

SarathW
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:55 am

Isn't Manayatana included in Salayatana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:17 am

Yes

chownah
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:56 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:51 pm
Greetings ,

According to sutta , the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects .
Therefore , what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?
To clarify this question I ask you to consider if any of the sense bases are of matter or non matter?
chownah

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:29 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:59 pm
James Tan wrote:Hi , we are use to take the nama as something belongs to of non matter . But , could it be possible nama is Unseen matter!
Sort of like Dark Matter? While modern physics doesn't clearly distinguish nama/rupa since matter and energy are interchangeable medium, the Theravada description of the 6th sense base limits it to within the mental scope. Ven. Bodhi's note in "Connected Discourses":
On first consideration, it would seem that the six internal and external sense bases should be understood simply as the six sense faculties and their objects, with the term ayatana, base, having the sense of origin or source. Though many suttas lend support to this supposition, the Theravada exegetical tradition, beginning already from the Abhidhamma period, understands the six pairs of bases as a complete scheme of classification capable of accommodating all the factors of existence mentioned in the Nik›yas. This conception of the six bases probably originated from the Sabba Sutta (35:23), in which the Buddha says that the six pairs of bases are “the all” apart from which nothing at all exists. To make the six bases capable of literally incorporating everything, the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pitaka defines the mind base (manayatana) as including all classes of consciousness, and the mental phenomena base (dhammayatana) as including the other three mental aggregates, subtle nonsensuous types of form, and even the unconditioned element, Nibbana (see Vibh 70–73).
Well , if we died the universe still exists .
Why mind is capable of conscious of it self and others and matter cannot ?!

James Tan
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:56 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:51 pm
Greetings ,

According to sutta , the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects .
Therefore , what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?
To clarify this question I ask you to consider if any of the sense bases are of matter or non matter?
chownah
What do you think ? Isn't Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body to be regarded as matter ?
For Mind some sutta take it as matter .
But , the question is , matter by itself is not self conscious . Something else infused it with life .

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:12 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:56 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:51 pm
Greetings ,

According to sutta , the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects .
Therefore , what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?
To clarify this question I ask you to consider if any of the sense bases are of matter or non matter?
chownah
What do you think ? Isn't Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body to be regarded as matter ?
For Mind some sutta take it as matter .
But , the question is , matter by itself is not self conscious . Something else infused it with life .
I think that the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are all "just so".

If one thinks that there is a lump of matter called "eye" from which seeing arises and a lump of matter called "ear" from which hearing arises and a lump of matter called "nose" from which smell arises and a lump of matter called "tongue" from which taste arises and a lump of matter called "body" from which tactile sensation arises then why not think that there is a lump of matter called "brain" from which mind arises?

chownah

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