Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

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pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am

I can't believe there is this kind of discussion around the web. How delusion can people be???


It is not about whether Sotapanna can break the five percepts or not. But it's a matter of choice that Sotapanna will choose not to break it.

The same question could be ask, can The Lord Buddha lie? Or, drink or kill a living thing??? Do you know what I mean??

Or, can you go outside naked? Of course, you can... but will you do it?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:31 am

pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am
hi there, glad you joined the forum.
pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am
Or, can you go outside naked? Of course, you can... but will you do it?
Well in what context people will ask. I think most people would for 100k USD ie. Where are you going with this analogy?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:56 am

My guess is that the faculty of "Hiri ottappa" is strengthened in a wise person, and combined with lack of doubt to the teachings, and this will balance all actions to fit with the way it is.

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:08 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:56 am
My guess is that the faculty of "Hiri ottappa" is strengthened in a wise person, and combined with lack of doubt to the teachings, and this will balance all actions to fit with the way it is.

:smile:
Hiri Ottapa is definitely restraining, however i think one would have to change the statement because if one says "all actions" this is refuted because they can lie, this is in the Sutta. So it should be said in a different way. Perhaps "most actions" or "almost all" would be harder to refute.

However i think Defense would ask to define how many actions and what exact method Opposition uses to tell what is and is not possible for him to do a reasonable question at this point as there have been proclaimed a list of Impossible Actions for a Sotapanna.
So the Opposition is expected to provide an answer.
This answer will be attacked for all it's worth in turn,

how would you answer that refutation?

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:53 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:08 am
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:56 am
My guess is that the faculty of "Hiri ottappa" is strengthened in a wise person, and combined with lack of doubt to the teachings, and this will balance all actions to fit with the way it is.

:smile:
Hiri Ottapa is definitely restraining, however i think one would have to change the statement because if one says "all actions" this is refuted because they can lie, this is in the Sutta. So it should be said in a different way. Perhaps "most actions" or "almost all" would be harder to refute.
To choose not to speak your mind in a situation, or too even tell a lie will be filtered through the "gate keepers" I mentioned, and might not be understood by mundane minds like ours. I think what's more important is if it all is based on ill or good will .. Producing kamma and so on.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:31 am
pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am
hi there, glad you joined the forum.
pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am
Or, can you go outside naked? Of course, you can... but will you do it?
Well in what context people will ask. I think most people would for 100k USD ie. Where are you going with this analogy?
I actually think it is lame to compare normal people with Sotapanna one especially in term of Kilesa (impurities) and Tanha (carving or desire). Normal people have far greater Kilesa and Tanha than Sotapanna. In the past, there was a wealthy Sotapanna man willing to donate all of his wealth to support Tisaranagamana (taking threefold refuge).

Qualifications to attain Sotapannna,
1. Truthfully respect Tisaranagamana (taking threefold refuge) without any doubt in his/her mind.
2. Have a pure sila especially the 1st 5 percepts.
3. Have far less Kilesa and Tanha than the normal people
4. His/her Citta always long for Nibbana

............

Anyway, just want to share 2 stories about breaking percepts during the Lord Buddha time...

There was this monk during the Lord Buddha time. He slept inside his Dussakutika (the yellow umbrellla-like tent). While he was sleeping, there was a farm woman sneak into his tent and had sex with him while he was still asleep. In the morning, the monk woke up and remembered what was going on. The question popped into his mind... Did I or did I not commit the major Apatti (offence)? So, he went to the Lord Buddha, told Him what happened, and asked whether he had commited major Apatti....

Then, the Lord Buddha answered, monk, while having sex during your sleeps, if your citta (mind) felt pleasant, even if you didnt do anything, then you have commited the major Apatti.

Another story...
During the Lord Buddha time, there was a very beautiful woman. And there was a man felt in love with her. However, she wasn't interested. Later, she became a monk and also became Arahanta (attained nibbana). Even after the woman become a monk, the man was still madly in love with her. Then, one night, this man raped her. The story spreaded.... and One monk asked the Lord Buddha if this woman monk had committed major Apatti...
Then, the Lord Buddha answered, Monk, the woman monk that you were talking about, she had attained nibbana and become Arahanta. Listen, monk, Arahanta is just like a dried logs with no roots. Kilesa and Tanha will never grow back on Arahanta's Citta, just like a leaf will never grow on the dried log.


.......
So what do you think we learn from these 2 stories?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:00 pm

I learned that you said one thing first and now being inconsistent when i asked you about your analogy you said it was lame and did no apply. Now you revert to just making the statement "cant break precepts" you have the burden of proof in this thread if you take that position you are expected to defend it and "oh that was just lame, but still proves my point" i am afraid that is not going to cut it.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:13 pm

pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:45 pm
Qualifications to attain Sotapannna,

2. Have a pure sila especially the 1st 5 percepts.
How do you derive all that from the stuff you have posted ITT or in general, without residue? Also what means "to attain", can he break them or not, is it possible, can it happen? that is the point. I think Defense will ask you where you are going with this and if you do have a plan. This as it stands does not even require refutation. You will be asked;
"on what grounds exactly do you make this statement?"
So it is back to square 1.

Disciple
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Disciple » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:40 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:30 am
"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2

"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
I guess we are all screwed then unless we become monks.

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DNS
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:00 pm

Disciple wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:40 pm
I guess we are all screwed then unless we become monks.
:?:

Did you mean to post in a different thread? You don't need to be a monk to follow the 5 precepts.

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Disciple » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:00 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:00 pm
Disciple wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:40 pm
I guess we are all screwed then unless we become monks.
:?:

Did you mean to post in a different thread? You don't need to be a monk to follow the 5 precepts.
No, what I was trying to imply is to become a sotapanna is a very difficult task for a layperson since you have to be perfect in keeping the five precepts with all the distractions of a job, family etc. It would be much easer to accomplish stream entry as a monk.

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:31 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:30 am
"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2

"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
If we consider the precepts to be equal to concentration and wisdom in depth of experience, then the sotapanna
has inability to break precepts at the level of falling back into states of deprivation.
Holding virtues dear to the noble ones at the level of sotapanna but not necessarily holding virtues dear to all the noble ones.
For example a sotapanna may knowingly be killing thousands of worms and bugs and destroying the homes of small animals while clearing and digging a foundation for a new home. They don’t want to kill these creatures and keep an eye out for them but it is their job and they know that it is occuring. Where an arahant has possibly removed them self from laylife and will not have to support family and will not partake in this they can maintain precepts at highest perfected level, conducive to concentration and wisdom at the highest level.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:06 pm

thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:31 pm
solid refutation imo, but defense dont have to give the example or explain how precepts work that would derail the discussion.
Attacking this position is not like attacking the "Sotapanna can not intentionally break the 5 precepts, it is impossible, can not happen"
Attacking "Sotapanna can not intentionally break the 5 precepts, it is impossible, can not happen" is a lot easier because it is sufficient to force Defending party to forfeit by admission to doubt, thus making it a view of theirs.

What i mean is that Defense better off not giving more info than is needed, especially if uncertain. In regards to second part of you post it gives the opposition the angle to shift the blame of proof to the defenders in the eyes of the public just for show or arguing (i don't think DNS would do this ofc). So Defense does not have to say what in particular is possible, just refer to what has been proclaimed as impossible in the Sutta.

Just a general comment
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by thepea » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:33 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:06 pm
thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:31 pm
solid refutation imo, but defense dont have to give the example or explain how precepts work that would derail the discussion.
Attacking this position is not like attacking the "Sotapanna can not intentionally break the 5 precepts, it is impossible, can not happen"
That is a lot easier to attack because it is sufficient to force Defending party to forfeit by admission to doubt, thus making it a view of theirs.

What i mean is that Defense better off not giving more info than is needed, especially if uncertain. In regards to second part of you post it gives the opposition the angle to shift the blame of proof to the defenders in the eyes of the public just for show or arguing (i don't think DNS would do this ofc). So Defense does not have to say what in particular is possible, just refer to what has been proclaimed as impossible in the Sutta.

Just a general comment
Didn’t an ajahn refer to sotapanna as fish sauce or something like that can’t exactly remember. But it gave the impression that sotapanna is not that highly in regard.
Seems to me that some put this noble one attainment on a pedistle out of reach and then never commit to a practice. I just find that sad and don’t feel it does justice to the sacrifice and hard work Enlightened masters have put forth.

I mean your sitting in meditation and the old monk is giving a sermon and it’s 9pm and you’ve been sitting for hours and hours all day and you get this back and knee pain kick in and you’re suffering greatly. I mean your just a sotapanna not an arahant and this old monk won’t shut up he just keeps going and going like the friggin energizer bunny and your in noble silence so not talking but the thought occurs “Jesus Christ old man would you shut up already so I can get up and go to bed”
Did you break the precepts I would say yes because that thought due to imperfected parmi of tolerance causes misery within perhaps not enough to go to states of deprivation but your still sitting there creating suffering.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:47 am

thepea wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:33 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:06 pm
thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:31 pm
solid refutation imo, but defense dont have to give the example or explain how precepts work that would derail the discussion.
Attacking this position is not like attacking the "Sotapanna can not intentionally break the 5 precepts, it is impossible, can not happen"
That is a lot easier to attack because it is sufficient to force Defending party to forfeit by admission to doubt, thus making it a view of theirs.

What i mean is that Defense better off not giving more info than is needed, especially if uncertain. In regards to second part of you post it gives the opposition the angle to shift the blame of proof to the defenders in the eyes of the public just for show or arguing (i don't think DNS would do this ofc). So Defense does not have to say what in particular is possible, just refer to what has been proclaimed as impossible in the Sutta.

Just a general comment
Didn’t an ajahn refer to sotapanna as fish sauce or something like that can’t exactly remember. But it gave the impression that sotapanna is not that highly in regard.
Seems to me that some put this noble one attainment on a pedistle out of reach and then never commit to a practice. I just find that sad and don’t feel it does justice to the sacrifice and hard work Enlightened masters have put forth.

I mean your sitting in meditation and the old monk is giving a sermon and it’s 9pm and you’ve been sitting for hours and hours all day and you get this back and knee pain kick in and you’re suffering greatly. I mean your just a sotapanna not an arahant and this old monk won’t shut up he just keeps going and going like the friggin energizer bunny and your in noble silence so not talking but the thought occurs “Jesus Christ old man would you shut up already so I can get up and go to bed”
Did you break the precepts
I would say yes because that thought due to imperfected parmi of tolerance causes misery within perhaps not enough to go to states of deprivation but your still sitting there creating suffering.
that would be a pain in the ass to refute for sure but I dont understand all the words because i have not studied parami. there is no precept against thinking spiteful thoughts people could say, so defence is better off not question on this manner imho it is redundant at that point.

I think of it like this, if Opposition comes up with a thousand refutable statements and all are refuted in a coherent and logical manner, the position Stands defended thoroughly, even if the vast majority of points were refuted with the same answer, as long as it applies it stands.

Cliffs;
Someone needs to come up with an opening and an endgame after first refutation, using Sutta more so than Abhidhamma and Abhidhamma more so than Vinaya Pitaka.
:anjali:

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