Sotapanna and five precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

sarakāni sutta, which you mentioned, says sarakāni 'completed the training' upon his death. completed the training here i interpret as utterly renouncing drinking in accordance with pañcasīla. i know of no examples of a sotāpanna breaking the precepts. as i'm not unclear on this, i'm curious why it is a topic at all. sotāpanna is like draining an ocean and having only a few drops left; that is how much dukkha is behind you. breaking pañcasīla induces terrible suffering, being capable of breaking those precepts in itself is unsatisfactory
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Further the Offensive Party will can bombarded with Sutta on Impossible and Possible... Should prepare defense
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:01 am i'm curious why it is a topic at all.
i mention sarakaani sutta and sigalovada sutta because they both are arguably proof for 5 precepts not being fundamental to holy life.
Well you guys were challenging the position, so i made a thread for you to prepare before i unleash without derailing the other thread.

I need someone to assume the role of Attacker tho so someone will actually have to come forth debating on your behalf. I doubt there will be such a champion among you, but let's find out and see how this unravels. I doubt because i think none of you even claims to understand the Nibbana and arising of Aggregates so i do not see how any of you could even attempt this. Apart from Doot, i am sure he would jump right in but if we go over the evidence first maybe even he will hestitate.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

i am not interested in a hostile discussion. i think a few of your comments to me have been unwarranted.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 am i am not interested in a hostile discussion. i think a few of your comments to me have been unwarranted.
id appreciate if you tell me so i can better reform myself, idk why people dont call me out on the way i post more i definitely deserve it...
:anjali:
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 am i am not interested in a hostile discussion.
I told you to make it friendly format and it annoyed me when you bumped that thread. I do not treat you as a troll and take time to answer all your questions afaik, i dont think it was appropriate but maybe you did not see it that way and it is not right of me to assume things will be understood by default if left unspoken. I am interested in debating this as much as possible tho, in the most structured way possible.

Also making this thread reliefs me of the burden of proof in that other thread, i do not think you understand what it takes to debate a view like this in a coherent manner with smart people but neither did i at some point.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

i vaguely remember you telling me to make a thread, but you linked a thread and i replied there. a bunch of different threads go on with many different people so i try to get in say my peace and unsubscribe. i like to troll from time to time but i havent tried to troll you you dont seem like you would take it very well either
if i were going to debate i would want to be sure i was speaking rightly, and as of yet i am operating off of my views. dylan said recently about getting angry and it being a sign that a wrong opinion is being held, might look at that
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:45 am i vaguely remember you telling me to make a thread, but you linked a thread and i replied there. a bunch of different threads go on with many different people so i try to get in say my peace and unsubscribe. i like to troll from time to time but i havent tried to troll you you dont seem like you would take it very well either
if i were going to debate i would want to be sure i was speaking rightly, and as of yet i am operating off of my views. dylan said recently about getting angry and it being a sign that a wrong opinion is being held, might look at that
That makes sense to me. As i thought it did not make sense that you ignored my post in regards looking at that thread for info on the matter and how previous debate went. As for trolling i would not do it on this forum for sure too much nice people intended on good.

In regards to holding wrong view, if you doubt then it is a view you hold, it can be either right or wrong if i had doubts about this topic id think to my self "screw this, this is clearly not essential to me and i am currently inclined to believe that propsition A is more probable than proposition B on account of x,y,z but i know or do not know the evidence and am not forced to take a position.
pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 »

I can't believe there is this kind of discussion around the web. How delusion can people be???


It is not about whether Sotapanna can break the five percepts or not. But it's a matter of choice that Sotapanna will choose not to break it.

The same question could be ask, can The Lord Buddha lie? Or, drink or kill a living thing??? Do you know what I mean??

Or, can you go outside naked? Of course, you can... but will you do it?
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

pinit29 wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am
hi there, glad you joined the forum.
pinit29 wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am Or, can you go outside naked? Of course, you can... but will you do it?
Well in what context people will ask. I think most people would for 100k USD ie. Where are you going with this analogy?
Last edited by User1249x on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud »

My guess is that the faculty of "Hiri ottappa" is strengthened in a wise person, and combined with lack of doubt to the teachings, and this will balance all actions to fit with the way it is.

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:56 am My guess is that the faculty of "Hiri ottappa" is strengthened in a wise person, and combined with lack of doubt to the teachings, and this will balance all actions to fit with the way it is.

:smile:
Hiri Ottapa is definitely restraining, however i think one would have to change the statement because if one says "all actions" this is refuted because they can lie, this is in the Sutta. So it should be said in a different way. Perhaps "most actions" or "almost all" would be harder to refute.

However i think Defense would ask to define how many actions and what exact method Opposition uses to tell what is and is not possible for him to do a reasonable question at this point as there have been proclaimed a list of Impossible Actions for a Sotapanna.
So the Opposition is expected to provide an answer.
This answer will be attacked for all it's worth in turn,

how would you answer that refutation?
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud »

User1249x wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:08 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:56 am My guess is that the faculty of "Hiri ottappa" is strengthened in a wise person, and combined with lack of doubt to the teachings, and this will balance all actions to fit with the way it is.

:smile:
Hiri Ottapa is definitely restraining, however i think one would have to change the statement because if one says "all actions" this is refuted because they can lie, this is in the Sutta. So it should be said in a different way. Perhaps "most actions" or "almost all" would be harder to refute.
To choose not to speak your mind in a situation, or too even tell a lie will be filtered through the "gate keepers" I mentioned, and might not be understood by mundane minds like ours. I think what's more important is if it all is based on ill or good will .. Producing kamma and so on.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 »

User1249x wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:31 am
pinit29 wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am
hi there, glad you joined the forum.
pinit29 wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am Or, can you go outside naked? Of course, you can... but will you do it?
Well in what context people will ask. I think most people would for 100k USD ie. Where are you going with this analogy?
I actually think it is lame to compare normal people with Sotapanna one especially in term of Kilesa (impurities) and Tanha (carving or desire). Normal people have far greater Kilesa and Tanha than Sotapanna. In the past, there was a wealthy Sotapanna man willing to donate all of his wealth to support Tisaranagamana (taking threefold refuge).

Qualifications to attain Sotapannna,
1. Truthfully respect Tisaranagamana (taking threefold refuge) without any doubt in his/her mind.
2. Have a pure sila especially the 1st 5 percepts.
3. Have far less Kilesa and Tanha than the normal people
4. His/her Citta always long for Nibbana

............

Anyway, just want to share 2 stories about breaking percepts during the Lord Buddha time...

There was this monk during the Lord Buddha time. He slept inside his Dussakutika (the yellow umbrellla-like tent). While he was sleeping, there was a farm woman sneak into his tent and had sex with him while he was still asleep. In the morning, the monk woke up and remembered what was going on. The question popped into his mind... Did I or did I not commit the major Apatti (offence)? So, he went to the Lord Buddha, told Him what happened, and asked whether he had commited major Apatti....

Then, the Lord Buddha answered, monk, while having sex during your sleeps, if your citta (mind) felt pleasant, even if you didnt do anything, then you have commited the major Apatti.

Another story...
During the Lord Buddha time, there was a very beautiful woman. And there was a man felt in love with her. However, she wasn't interested. Later, she became a monk and also became Arahanta (attained nibbana). Even after the woman become a monk, the man was still madly in love with her. Then, one night, this man raped her. The story spreaded.... and One monk asked the Lord Buddha if this woman monk had committed major Apatti...
Then, the Lord Buddha answered, Monk, the woman monk that you were talking about, she had attained nibbana and become Arahanta. Listen, monk, Arahanta is just like a dried logs with no roots. Kilesa and Tanha will never grow back on Arahanta's Citta, just like a leaf will never grow on the dried log.


.......
So what do you think we learn from these 2 stories?
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

I learned that you said one thing first and now being inconsistent when i asked you about your analogy you said it was lame and did no apply. Now you revert to just making the statement "cant break precepts" you have the burden of proof in this thread if you take that position you are expected to defend it and "oh that was just lame, but still proves my point" i am afraid that is not going to cut it.
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