Loved this ❤️

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Meezer77
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Loved this ❤️

Post by Meezer77 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:01 pm


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DNS
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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by DNS » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:45 am

That's a good video for a quickie into to Buddhism for those without the patience to read a full book on it or to watch a 2 hour documentary of the Buddha's life, but there's one big error toward the end:

Theravada does not say only monks can get enlightened. A lay person can get enlightened, it's just that once he/she attains enlightenment they seek ordination (the robe) immediately or die within 7 days (according to tradition, not directly in the suttas afaik). And lay people can attain non-returner and remain a lay person, even after attaining that state.

Overall though, pretty good as a quickie introduction.

Meezer77
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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by Meezer77 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:31 am

If the 7 days rule isn't in the suttas then is it possible that it was added at some point as a scaremongering tactic? Reminds me of the Japanese horror film "Ring"

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:02 am

It makes sense if one regards arahant as being free from responsebility to maintain the body. How many days does the body function without water, 2, 3, or maybe 7?
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Meezer77
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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by Meezer77 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:13 am

So you can't eat or drink if you're an Arahant?

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by DNS » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:40 pm

Meezer77 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:13 am
So you can't eat or drink if you're an Arahant?
You can eat and drink as an arahant, but if you are not a monk or nun, there would be no one to give you that food and drink. If you held a job, you'd be subject to all the trappings and cravings of the 'rat-race' and all that entails, which I presume an arahant would not be interested in.

Here is one opposing view, which suggests a new arahant does not need to ordain:
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... y-RB57.pdf

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by Meezer77 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:06 pm

Thanks DNS, so if the 7 day rule isn't backed up by the suttas and as the last paragraph of the article says, was partly put in place out of fear of the sangha losing power,then how much attention should we give it? I'm not suggesting that the sangha is pointless or should be done away with btw.

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by DNS » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:54 pm

Meezer77 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:06 pm
Thanks DNS, so if the 7 day rule isn't backed up by the suttas and as the last paragraph of the article says, was partly put in place out of fear of the sangha losing power,then how much attention should we give it? I'm not suggesting that the sangha is pointless or should be done away with btw.
It's good to keep an open mind, but for me personally the 7 day rule appears to make sense. If a lay person becomes an arahant, all of his/her defilements and fetters will be gone. Such a person would most likely be only interested in the Dhamma and teaching the Dhamma. It would be difficult, if not impossible to hold a livelihood which involves negotiating, sales pitches, acquisitions, taking orders from bosses (who may not be that wholesome), etc which wouldn't fit with the arahant mind and lifestyle. Therefore, he/she would seek ordination immediately or perhaps perish as a lay person within about 7 days or so, as in the case of Bahiya (perished immediately after awakening).

If we accept the 7 day rule as true, then at least we could immediately dismiss lay claimants to arahantship without much argument. Or count 7 days from their pronouncement and see if they ordained or perished. :tongue:

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 am

DNS,
You seem to be of the view that arahants are in some way less capable in dealing with the world than non-arahants. Can you be more explicit in describing how you see the arahants inabilities?
Why wouldn't a lay arahant just keep on doing their right livelihood etc?
chownah

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:30 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 am
You seem to be of the view that arahants are in some way less capable in dealing with the world than non-arahants. Can you be more explicit in describing how you see the arahants inabilities?
Why wouldn't a lay arahant just keep on doing their right livelihood etc?
You make it sound like a disability. No, I'm not saying they are incapable, just probably no interest. A stock broker who attains enlightenment, won't be interested in making the next 'big deal' the next day. In the same way an arahant is said not to do these 9 things:
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/9_thin ... _cannot_do

not because they physically cannot, but because there is no interest.

I suppose one potential way a lay person could remain un-ordained is if they are already a lay Dhamma teacher. And then they just continued with that, however, there are also sutta references against making a living off of the Dhamma, so not sure if that would work either. Or what if the lay person was already independently financially secure, from let's say well-placed investments or retirement income? Maybe such things were not considered in 500 BCE? And then potentially the lay person attains enlightenment and teaches from a lay 8 or 10 precept position, without any day-to-day grind-work?

However, it is said an arahant does not store up possessions either (AN 9.7), so that probably wouldn't work either. So I think the ordination route is making the most sense of what must happen.

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by James Tan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:00 am

An Arahant would not response to anything because they don't have craving . It's hard to imagine an lay arahant dealing with anything in the society . I supposed compassionate and kind arahant would give away their belongings and property , how could they compete with others ?
Anyway , arahant would not and could not live a mundane life , otherwise , they are not living a holy life .

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:41 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:30 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 am
You seem to be of the view that arahants are in some way less capable in dealing with the world than non-arahants. Can you be more explicit in describing how you see the arahants inabilities?
Why wouldn't a lay arahant just keep on doing their right livelihood etc?
You make it sound like a disability. No, I'm not saying they are incapable, just probably no interest. A stock broker who attains enlightenment, won't be interested in making the next 'big deal' the next day.
I want you to know that it is not me that is making it sound like a disability...it is you. I don't ascribe to your views of what it is like to be an arahant and you seem to alternate between:

1. "ordain or perish": which certainly sounds like some kind of disability to me...it seems to mean that your view is that an arahant is less capable of dealing with the world than a worldling!!!...seems like a disability to me......I definitely think that an arahant is BETTER at dealing with the world than a worldling in every way.

and

2. "no interest": which sounds like an arahant is bored with life...how could that be...the buddha describes attaining the goal as being transcendentally joyous (maybe I'm using the wrong words but I hope you understand what I am saying). If an arahant is not interested in doing anything outside a monastary why would an arahant be interested in doing something inside a monastary?....a monastary is just one part of the world and there is not magic joojoo that I know of which happens when you enter or leave a monastary.

I don't understand your "ordain or perish" as being anything other than a disability....I don't understand your "no interest" as being something that ordaining would effect at all.

My view is that an arahant would just pretty much keep doing what it is they do but with a very different attitude and view of it.....a dish washer attaining arahanthood would just go on being a dishwasher.....why not?

Also, let's be clear.....there is no 7 day RULE anywhere in the suttas....it is completely a worldling fabrication. If I am wrong then please show me the sutta.
chownah

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:50 pm

well, gods knows ... ;)

I like this saying:

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:35 pm

chownah,

I already quoted AN 9.7 here is the full text:
https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.7
“[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse. [4] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie. [5] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.

“[6] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on desire. [7] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on aversion. [8] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on fear. [9] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on delusion.
And the above demonstrates that there are some things an arahant does not do, not out of any disability, but no interest in doing those things. And one of the things listed is storing up things "as he did when he was a householder" and that is a sutta reference.

The Milindapanha is a Theravada text and considered Canonical, part of the Tipitaka according to the Burmese tradition:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf
see page 138:
62. The Lay Arahant
“You say that if a layman attains
arahantship he must either
enter the Order that very day or die and attain
parinibbàna.
199
Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl
and preceptor then that exalted condition of
arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it.”
“The fault does not lie with
arahantship but with the
state of a layman, because it is too weak to support
arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life
of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is
weak – so too, if a layman attains arahantship
he must, because of the weakness of th
at condition, enter the Order
that very day or die.”
However, as I have done in this thread, I am still open and interested in discussing this, even though the Theravada position is that a lay person can become an arahant, it is just that he ordains within 7 days after attaining enlightenment (according to Theravada).

Meezer77
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Re: Loved this ❤️

Post by Meezer77 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:08 pm

Is the 7 day rule generally accepted by senior monastics?

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