The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by mikenz66 »

Going back to the original question, here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Noble Eightfold Path"

Emphasis mine...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The most important feature of kamma is its capacity to produce results corresponding to the ethical quality of the action. An immanent universal law holds sway over volitional actions, bringing it about that these actions issue in retributive consequences, called vipaka, "ripenings," or phala, "fruits." The law connecting actions with their fruits works on the simple principle that unwholesome actions ripen in suffering, wholesome actions in happiness. The ripening need not come right away; it need not come in the present life at all. Kamma can operate across the succession of lifetimes; it can even remain dormant for aeons into the future. But whenever we perform a volitional action, the volition leaves its imprint on the mental continuum, where it remains as a stored up potency. When the stored up kamma meets with conditions favorable to its maturation, it awakens from its dormant state and triggers off some effect that brings due compensation for the original action. The ripening may take place in the present life, in the next life, or in some life subsequent to the next. A kamma may ripen by producing rebirth into the next existence, thus determining the basic form of life; or it may ripen in the course of a lifetime, issuing in our varied experiences of happiness and pain, success and failure, progress and decline. But whenever it ripens and in whatever way, the same principle invariably holds: wholesome actions yield favorable results, unwholesome actions yield unfavorable results.

To recognize this principle is to hold right view of the mundane kind. This view at once excludes the multiple forms of wrong view with which it is incompatible. As it affirms that our actions have an influence on our destiny continuing into future lives, it opposes the nihilistic view which regards this life as our only existence and holds that consciousness terminates with death. As it grounds the distinction between good and evil, right and wrong, in an objective universal principle, it opposes the ethical subjectivism which asserts that good and evil are only postulations of personal opinion or means to social control. As it affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits set by their conditions, it opposes the "hard deterministic" line that our choices are always made subject to necessitation, and hence that free volition is unreal and moral responsibility untenable.
Whether one want to use an Abhidhamma paramattha dhamma approach, or use conventional conceptual language, I think that the important point is that:
The law connecting actions with their fruits works on the simple principle that unwholesome actions ripen in suffering, wholesome actions in happiness.
Metta
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:What it means to me is that Angulimala experienced pain due to his kamma.

Any issue with that?
There are so many factors involved in what led to that circumstance, such that "Angulimala experienced pain due to his kamma" is an oversimplification which, if accepted at face value, would lead to an incorrect understanding. To break down the main factors involved, I'll number them...

1. Firstly, Angulimala was born... this was kamma-samutthāna and kamma-vipaka.

2. Angulimala murdered people... that was kamma.

3. Angulimala became an arahant... that was the transcending of all kamma and all vipaka (that's where the I disagree with the commentarial "accident").

4. People saw Angulimala and recognised him and his reputation... that was contact.

5. People threw stuff... that was their kamma, conditioned by 4.

6. Angulimala got hit by stuff. 1, 2 & 4 were supporting conditions for this... 5 was the proximate condition.

6. Angulimala felt pain.... 5 was a proximate condition for this, and 5 was dependent on 1, 2 and 4 (as well as all the other infinite number of supporting causes, such as the presence of the Earth, the sun, the universe etc.)

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Whether one want to use an Abhidhamma paramattha dhamma approach, or use conventional conceptual language, I think that the important point is that:
The law connecting actions with their fruits works on the simple principle that unwholesome actions ripen in suffering, wholesome actions in happiness.
For non-arahants experiencing samsara, yes... though its not a linear correlation, and there's no 'cosmic scales' to ensure balance.

It's also important not to reduce kamma to "just a morality teaching" though... because it's far more than some kind of incentive plan.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by cooran »

Hello Retro, Mike, all,

We are all non-arahants. I think there is agreement that the Buddha taught that unwholesome intentional actions (kamma) accumulate in unpleasant results (vipaka). Maybe not immediately, but certainly.
Retro said: It's interesting... after reading quite a few suttas, I'm becoming increasing convinced that these random stray cows are simply a literary device to provide an opportunity for the Buddha to detail the status of a bhikkhu (e.g. arahant, non-returner) to others (bhikkhus, and in turn, us). There's a certain standardness to them.
This would probably be an unwise conclusion Retro ~ there are 200 million cows in India roaming free. At the time of the Buddha there would still have been huge numbers - as today - roaming narrow laneways between buildings, walking freely along footpaths, blocking traffic, sitting at cross roads and in main shopping centres. They are regarded as holy, and are not chased even in the centre of large commercial cities.

As one who has been tree-d by a cow - a cow that had personally known me and been fed, patted, stroked and groomed daily for three years by me - I understand how even a small cow with determination can kill a human being (my experience was with a beautiful brown-eyed, long-lashed small jersey house-cow).

We knew she was pregnant, but, unbeknownst to my family and I, my cow had given birth to a calf and hidden it in long grass. As some of us were walking down towards the creek, she appeared out of the scrub bellowing like a maniac and clearly intent on harming us. We still had no knowledge that she had calved, but appreciated that she wasn't mentally herself at that moment. The three of us sprinted towards the trees, found one with low branches, and climbed it like experienced chimpanzees - it's amazing what real fear will do. We spent two hours perched in the tree, while the rampaging bellowing cow thundered up and down below us. Eventually she calmed down and went away. By this time we had realized by physical signs that she had given birth. We quietly got out of the tree, climbed over the fence to the next door property and went home to a strong cup of tea. The cow was back to her normal quiet loving self the next day and brought the calf to show me. But, under the influence of hormones, if I had fallen or not temporarily had the speed of an Olympic runner, she would have killed or seriously wounded me. The cows in India are much larger than she was.

This article may be helpful also - if it can happen so frequently in the U.S.A. with no cows roaming free, then you can understand the large number of deaths in Inda where 200 million roam free.

The image of cows as placid, gentle creatures is a city slicker’s fantasy, judging from an article published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which reports that about 20 people a year are killed by cows in the United States. In some cases, the cows actually attack humans—ramming them, knocking them down, goring them, trampling them and kicking them in the head—resulting in fatal injuries to the head and chest.
Mother cows, like other animals, can be fiercely protective of their young, and dairy bulls, the report notes, are “especially possessive of their herd and occasionally disrupt feeding, cleaning, and milking routines.”
The article, in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, discusses 21 cases in which people were killed by cattle from 2003 to 2007 in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska.

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/200 ... rous-cows/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So .... how many more are likely to be killed in India where the large cows wander the main highways and roads in the centre of cities? Very similar to the standard reports heard daily on your local television news of the number of people killed that day by cars on the roads. You wouldn't call that a literary device for (insert reason). .... Just a different cultures and different dangers.

metta
Chris
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

Glad you evaded the wrath of the cow!

Whilst I don't disagree that cows can be deadly, it's awfully convenient that the only people in the Pali Canon who seem to be killed by them were relatively obscure bhikkhus who had approached the Buddha earlier that day for a teaching, achieved (insert level of nobility) virtually instantaneously, departed the Buddha, got killed by a bovine, and then had the bhikkhus ask the Buddha about said bhikkhu's fate. I'm not even saying that this sequence of events didn't happen once... but trawling through the Pali Canon it seems that the editors used the "copy and paste" function on this incident a few times.
I think there is agreement that the Buddha taught that unwholesome intentional actions (kamma) accumulate in unpleasant results (vipaka). Maybe not immediately, but certainly.
I'm pretty sure that the commentaries state that it is not certain... that not all kamma comes to fruition (alas, I can't find the classification scheme just at the moment).

EDIT: Oh here it is... productive kamma, supportive kamma, obstructive kamma and destructive kamma.

Luckily so, or attaining arahantship would be a painful experience!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by tiltbillings »

Chris wrote:
Retro said: It's interesting... after reading quite a few suttas, I'm becoming increasing convinced that these random stray cows are simply a literary device to provide an opportunity for the Buddha to detail the status of a bhikkhu (e.g. arahant, non-returner) to others (bhikkhus, and in turn, us). There's a certain standardness to them.
This would probably be an unwise conclusion Retro ~ there are 200 million cows in India roaming free. At the time of the Buddha there would still have been huge numbers - as today - roaming narrow laneways between buildings, walking freely along footpaths, blocking traffic, sitting at cross roads and in main shopping centres. They are regarded as holy, and are not chased even in the centre of large commercial cities.
Just a side note. How cows are regarded now in India, is likely was not how they were regarded then. In volume two of R. C. Majumdar's THE HISTORY AND CULTURE OF THE INDIAN PEOPLE, dealing with the time between 600 B.C. and 320 A.D., we find this statement[3]:

In spite of the growing spirit of ahimsa fostered by the Jains and Buddhists, and enforced by emperors like Asoka, various kinds of fish and meat, not excluding beef, were extensively taken by the people.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

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Hello Tilt, Retro, all,

I've been to India three times in the last 8 years and am going again in five weeks time to once again visit the sites of the Buddha's lifetime. Most are in the poorest rural areas in India, teeming with camels, cows and horses. The cows mainly wander free. What I was saying about cows was what I saw myself on these trips. Even on a side-trip to the Taj Mahal - there were cows wandering on the footpaths and streets outside.

You would be aware that the Pali Suttas were not written down initially, so no 'copy and paste'. Only unimportant things like business transactions were written down at that time. For the really important things like religious teachings (i.e. the suttas) memorisation and group chanting (beginning while the Buddha was alive) were used. The Buddha didn't make attainments of bhikkhus up, just to underline a lesson he was teaching others. The Chanting Together was done by very large groups of bhikkhus (bhanakas) dedicated to preserving the Teachings unchanged and 'unedited'.

with metta
Chris
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
Chris wrote:You would be aware that the Pali Suttas were not written down initially, so no 'copy and paste'.
Sure, but there was certainly what Bhikkhu Bodhi calls "stock text". Ranging from sentences to a couple of pages of text, these blocks of "stock text" made memorization of the teachings easier for the bhikkhus, saving them from having to remember textual variations that added little or no value.

Many suttas were also constructed to fit certain structural templates. For example, often, if the location of a particular teaching was not known, the commentators advise us that the editors often placed the location in one of the major cities. So "at Savatthi" might not always mean "at Savatthi"! But then, location is just a peripheral aspect to a sutta, as is a bhikkhu's mode of death... the important thing is the Dhamma teaching, and I feel very confident that the bhikkhus did a fine job collectively transmitting these suttas orally until they were finally put to leaf.

Repetition is a common theme within the Pali Canon, but this is not inherently a bad thing. In many ways it's very practical.

Apologies for the off-topic detour.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

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Chris wrote:Hello Tilt, Retro, all,

I've been to India three times in the last 8 years and am going again in five weeks time to once again visit the sites of the Buddha's lifetime. Most are in the poorest rural areas in India, teeming with camels, cows and horses. The cows mainly wander free. What I was saying about cows was what I saw myself on these trips. Even on a side-trip to the Taj Mahal - there were cows wandering on the footpaths and streets outside.

You would be aware that the Pali Suttas were not written down initially, so no 'copy and paste'. Only unimportant things like business transactions were written down at that time. For the really important things like religious teachings (i.e. the suttas) memorisation and group chanting (beginning while the Buddha was alive) were used. The Buddha didn't make attainments of bhikkhus up, just to underline a lesson he was teaching others. The Chanting Together was done by very large groups of bhikkhus (bhanakas) dedicated to preserving the Teachings unchanged and 'unedited'.

with metta
Chris
I am well aware of how the suttas were preserved. My comment was simply an aside - a small footnote -, making the point that how cows are regarded now in India - as holy - is not necessarily how they were regarded in India at the time of the Buddha.That cows could be found wondering freely back then, is obviously so, but they could also, back then, be seen as lunch, a situation generally not the case now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by cooran »

Retro said: Many suttas were also constructed to fit certain structural templates. For example, often, if the location of a particular teaching was not known, the commentators advise us that the editors often placed the location in one of the major cities. So "at Savatthi" might not always mean "at Savatthi"! But then, location is just a peripheral aspect to a sutta, as is a bhikkhu's mode of death...
Could you give a link to where the commentaries state this please? Then those who wish can read for themselves.
A bhikkhus' mode of death, particularly one with attainments, and particularly when stated by the Buddha in answer to a direct question, is not a peripheral aspect to a sutta.

Repetition is used in the Suttas for those portions which were to be emphasised.

metta
Chris
Last edited by cooran on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Mike and Paul, for taking the time to hash out these ideas in detail. I appreciate the opportunity to develop a better understanding of kamma.
mikenz66 wrote:According to the Buddha it is futile to speculate about the details of the workings of kamma but it is certainly said in the Suttas that it can have unpleasant effects. These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow, or being killed by a tsumami...
I might be misreading all of this, but it seems to me the basic concern is the question of whether our volitional actions (kamma) can bring, as an effect, something seemingly random happening to us (like a tsunami). That's the pop view of karma, I think.

(Interesting to note, however, that the Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta discusses kamma that can lead to a short life span in a future rebirth.)

Personally, I don't think it does much good to worry about the seemingly random events that might befall us in this samsara and speculate whether or not we "deserve" such events based on our past volitional actions. More important, in my view, is to cultivate as much as possible equanimity toward whatever comes our way (by no means an easy thing to do, especially in the face of a tragedy like a tsunami).

But I'm wondering as I read this thread, is anyone here arguing that our volitional actions can bring, as an effect, something seemingly random happening to us?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:What it means to me is that Angulimala experienced pain due to his kamma.
Any issue with that?
There are so many factors involved in what led to that circumstance, such that "Angulimala experienced pain due to his kamma" is an oversimplification which, if accepted at face value, would lead to an incorrect understanding.
...
I'm simply basing my statement on what the Buddha says in the Sutta ("... You are experiencing here and now the results of deeds ...", not by trying to reason about the workings of kamma. In short, I'm trusting that what the Buddha is recorded to have said is reliable.

If you accept that "mundane right view" involves accepting that bad kamma leads to suffering, then that suffering is generally going to involve bad stuff happening. You can try to hide behind it being technically "unpleasant bodily or mental feeling", but that unpleasant feeling doesn't (always) spring up spontaneously from the mind. Angulimala didn't have unpleasant bodily feeling because he was in a bad mood. He had unpleasant bodily feeling when the stones hit him...

Metta
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote: But I'm wondering as I read this thread, is anyone here arguing that our volitional actions can bring, as an effect, something seemingly random happening to us?
Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding all of the teachings on kamma that I've ever heard or read from various teachers (such as Bhikkhu Bodhi), but if only "predictable bad stuff" happens what is the point of the Buddha's teaching that bad kamma leads to bad results? As Bhikkhu Bodhi says in the quote I gave above, bad kamma leaves an "imprint" on the thought-stream that gives an inclination for certain situations, in this life or future lives, where suffering will occur. Since we are not even Arahants, let alone Buddha's, these situations will seem random.

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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by tiltbillings »

I certainly would not push kamma to the point that we would say that tsunamis are the result of kamma. One might be able to reasonably argue that global warming could be the result of collective actions by humans, but some processes are simply not touched by that. Not all suffering is the result of kamma.
"some feelings, Sivaka, arise here originating from bile disorders... originating from phlegm disorders,.... originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance <of the three>.... produced by change of climate... produced by careless behavior... caused by assault... produced as the result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world." Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful, that is caused by what was done in the past,' they over shoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.” Samyutta Nikaya, IV 230. vedanasamyutta, sutta 21. page 1279

See this by Ven P. A. Payutto (via the Wayback Machine):

http://web.archive.org/web/200404170411 ... kamma6.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
Chris wrote:Could you give a link to where the commentaries state this please? Then those who wish can read for themselves.
Unfortunately I can't recall where I read this (quite possibly it was a footnote to a sutta?), or even have the first clue as to where I might go about working out where I read it, so you'll just have to take it as something I believe I have recall reading. If that carries no weighting, then so be in it. The closest I've been able to find is "scholars generally ascribe very little reliability to place names mentioned in the Pali Canon"

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fNu ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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