Stream Entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
J.Lee.Nelson
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by J.Lee.Nelson »

JohnK wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:32 pm Based on my reading (and not any attainment), I think you have too many qualifiers to be.
As a practical matter, it may not make any difference: Would you stop practicing either way -- with so much more to attain regardless?
Keep on keepin' on.
(It might be useful to try to see the cause of your question; to see/know any dukkha and its cause.) :anjali:
Oh, I don't think the qualifiers are neccessarily a sign of him not being a stream-enterer. It's how he feels about the qualifiers. One of my favorite Ajahn Chah talks is the one where he explains how "Not sure" became sort of his touchstone frame of mind. When one realizes the impermance of all conditioned things, the uncertainy of the mind and sense contacts, then really everything is "not sure." Someone once asked Ajahn Chah if he was an arahant. He replied something to the effect of, "When the birds come to a tree and eat the fruits, they say 'This fruit is bitter' or 'This fruit is sweet' but the tree doesn't even have a concept of it."

You hit the nail right on the head about looking at the cause of the question. Asking the question in a semi-public forum does have a flavor of "Validate me!" "Label me!" "I want to be a something!" "I need to have achieved something!" In those cases, not a streamwinner.

The way I imagine it, becoming a streamwinner is a sneaky, surreptitious process. You start off as a worlding, but then you begin practicing and one day you think to yourself "The Buddha was so right! The Dhamma is so true! The Sangha is so wonderful! How can anyone see it any other way?" It's like when you take a maths class and The Dunce asks the professor a question and she looks at The Dunce like that person has three heads with five eyes on each one. "How can you even think that, given what I've taught you so far?" And so, the streamwinner looks back how they acted and thought in the past, before encountering the Dhamma and says to themself "Gosh, I was so deluded! Wow, very anger! Much greedy! I can't think that way with what I know now!" (Sorry about the doge-grammar, couldn't resist it.) Where before becoming a streamwinner one might have been taken by surprise at the hole that seemed to suddenly appear at the bottom of the shoe, the streamwinner notices day by day that the soles of his shoes are slowly scraped away. As one's faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha becomes stronger and less shakable, the violition to keep precepts and practice meditation is stronger and less easily swayed by worldly arguments. Eventually the question "Would you like some wine?" isn't answered by "Well, I shouldn't, but okay" but by "Well, I'd like to, but I keep the five Buddhist precepts, so no." (I imagine an arahant would say "Why on earth would I want to????") And so on. It's often stated that one of the fruits of streamwinning is that one will never do anything that will send them to a lower rebirth. But probably it should be taken as a measurement. Can you simply, lightly break a precept in everyday life? Yes? Then you're not a streamwinner. I'm not talking about hypothetical situations like "Drink this bottle of wine or I'll shoot your family." That's one of the places that "not sure" comes from. I'm talking in everyday life. Streamwinning isn't just a white shirt that you put on to attend a dhamma talk. It's not an achievement or a title. It's a mode of being, moment to moment, that is a result of sila, sati, panna.

(By my own standards, I'm not a streamwinner. I crave and eat bacon and cold-cuts and other meat and buy and prepare meat for my non-Buddhist family members, and, knowing what I do about the Law of Supply and Demand, I feel guilty about indirectly not keeping the First Precept. Working on such things, though! Plus, like, is a "Sangha" member still a Sangha member if they do things that are very un-Buddhist? I'm talking about those Muslim-hating "monks" in Burma. 'Cause, like, if they're the Sangha that I'm supposed to have unshakable faith in, heck no, I'm not a streamwinner by the Mirror of Dhamma standards.)

Anyway, I love Ajahn Amaro's talk on Sotapanna-ship https://youtu.be/5YdRFlLupUM. This is where I learned that whenever someone asked Ajahn Chah "What is sotapanna?" He would reply "Sotapanna is fish sauce." Turns out there is a Sotapanna-brand fish sauce in Thailand. I think it's sort of the Ajahn Chah version of Forrest Gump's "That's all I have to say about that."
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Circle5
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Circle5 »

The only "test" for been a sotopanna that I know of is this (SN 48.5):
Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties.

When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. ”
Though it is highly unlikely you have attained stream entry because, judging from your post, you have not practiced in the way that is required for attainment of stream entry.

There are hundres of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas. All did it in the same way, using the same method, none did it in a different way. If you want to ever achieve stream entry, you need to find out what this method is and try to do it yourself. But that is not hard to find out, you just have to check how people did it in the suttas.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Crazy cloud »

The Stream is The Eight fold Path. To be a winner of this stream means to not just understand it, but to stand under until the taste of liberation is known.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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Alīno
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Alīno »

You will not miss it when it will arrive. You will have some powerfull insight about nature of the world (insight depends on practitioner) but this insight will allow you to see all as anicca, dukkha and anatta directly, not conceptualy, this clear vision of things as they realy are will uproot your "i am", uproot that what you considered as yourself (consciously or inconsciously), this uprooting will make you feel realy light, as if you droped off a realy havy bag from your sholders, and this lightness and understanding will bring you joy.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm You will not miss it when it will arrive. You will have some powerfull insight about nature of the world (insight depends on practitioner) but this insight will allow you to see all as anicca, dukkha and anatta directly, not conceptualy, this clear vision of things as they realy are will uproot your "i am", uproot that what you considered as yourself (consciously or inconsciously), this uprooting will make you feel realy light, as if you droped off a realy havy bag from your sholders, and this lightness and understanding will bring you joy.
This sounds a lot like the doctrine on nibbana in the here&now;
5. Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now (Diṭṭhadhammanibbānavāda): Views 58–62

93. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of Nibbāna here and now and who, on five grounds, proclaim Nibbāna here and now for an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

94. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine or view: 'When this self, good sir, furnished and supplied with the five strands of sense pleasures, revels in them — at this point the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

95. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because, good sir, sense pleasures are impermanent, suffering, subject to change, and through their change and transformation there arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

96. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because that jhāna contains initial and sustained thought; therefore it is declared to be gross. But when, with the subsiding of initial and sustained thought, the self enters and abides in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is free from initial and sustained thought, and contains the rapture and happiness born of concentration — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

97. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because of the mental exhilaration connected with rapture that exists there. But when, with the fading away of rapture, one abides in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and still experiencing happiness with the body, enters and abides in the third jhāna, so that the ariyans announce: "He abides happily, in equanimity and mindfulness" — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

98. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because a mental concern, 'Happiness,' exists there. But when, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of previous joy and grief, one enters and abides in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure and pain and contains purification of mindfulness through equanimity — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
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Alīno
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Alīno »

I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
That is good :smile: phew:)
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Saengnapha
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Saengnapha »

User1249x wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
That is good :smile: phew:)
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

That being said. If a person has a strong conviction, is established in mindfulness and attains easily the four Rupa Jhanas he is likely rightfully called Stream-Enterer, probably Dhamma or Faith Fallower on the Path and will realize the Fruit eventually in this life.
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

“If One Would Wish
Ākaṅkheyya Sutta (MN 6)

If a monk would wish, ‘May I—with the ending of (the first) three fetters—be a stream-winner, certain, never again destined for the lower realms, headed for self-awakening,’ then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to inner tranquility of awareness, who doesn’t neglect jhāna, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

Saengnapha wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm
User1249x wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?
I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
1. Eternalism (Sassatavāda): Views 1–4

30. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

31. "In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions],[5] he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) 'Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
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Alīno
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Alīno »

User1249x wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
That is good :smile: phew:)
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
I dont said it was a jhana or during a jhana too :P
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

I will show how we understand eachother:)
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm You will not miss it when it will arrive.
X will arrive
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm You will have some powerfull insight about nature of the world
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm this insight will allow you to see all as anicca, dukkha and anatta
So we know now that the "Powerful Insight" is followed by "Seeing All as anicca, dukkha and anatta".
In the Dhamma these words have meaning;
All = Sabba Sutta;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
The words;
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pmsee all as
So this means that the All is perceived as;
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm as anicca, dukkha and anatta
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm directly, not conceptualy
First comes "powerful insight" then comes perception of characteristic of stress in All [Created Phenomena], then X arrives/Arises.
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm this clear vision of things as they realy are
Here Nyanaponika There offers one interpretation of the term in itself;
To see things as they really are means to see them consistently in the light of the three characteristics.
however you did say
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm directly, not conceptualy
This would normally refer to a meditative attainment;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.

"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
So it does at this point sound like you are talking by entering meditative state.
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm will uproot your "i am", uproot that what you considered as yourself (consciously or inconsciously)
So a meditative attainment that uproots the view of self by seeing 3Cs in All, sounds a lot like;
Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases
31. Suitable for Uprooting
“Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.
However Nibbana is not an arisen state. It does not arrive. Therefore X cannot be Nibbana. So i am thinking Jhana Then, what else can it be and get concerned that you might Hold Eternalist View about Nibbana in the Here&Now.
this uprooting will make you feel realy light, as if you droped off a realy havy bag from your sholders,
this lightness and understanding will bring you joy.
At this point you talk about Jhana factor Joy arising after reflecting on 3 characteristics so i am almost certain you are talking about Jhana as if it was Nibbana.
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:55 pm
User1249x wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
Nwad wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
..
I dont said it was a jhana or during a jhana too :P
So my question is then what is this "powerful insight" and this "meditative attainment" that you are talking about and how does it relate to Stream-Entry?
Last edited by User1249x on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

terminology is important, if you are confused about the terms i suggest you try speak in your own words more otherwise i will probably keep doing this.
User1249x
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by User1249x »

i dont mind doing it, it is good training in semantics and looking up Sutta for me and you learn quickly i think but hardly appropriate way to talk about the Dhamma imho.
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