Why is Nirvana permanent?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:12 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:19 am
nirvana is a refuge


annihilation isn't a refuge
relax it is only annihilation of suffering
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 am

I'm trying to correct a wrong view

it seems to be a desire to be annihilated

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:11 am

it seems to me like you maybe confusing the words Cessation and Annihilation, do you think it is possible?
Ie, do you think one can rightfully say these;
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation of the Five Aggregates"
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation Samsaric existence"
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation of perception and feeling"
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation of suffering"

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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 am
it seems to be a desire to be annihilated
Seeking permanence suggests a desire not to be annihilated. Grasping at further becoming, which is an aspect of tanha in the Second Noble Truth.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:15 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 am
it seems to be a desire to be annihilated
Seeking permanence suggests a desire not to be annihilated. Grasping at further becoming, which is an aspect of tanha in the Second Noble Truth.
:twothumbsup: :goodpost:

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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Nirvana obviously isn't becoming, although it is a state,
a dimension, a refuge, etc.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:52 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 pm
Nirvana obviously isn't becoming, although it is a state,
a dimension, a refuge, etc.
If you dont answer questions you make it impossible to talk to you, because Tathagata has supposedly said that such person is unfit to talk to.
It is called being evasive in the world in general.
If you dont want to answer those i posed i will ask simply what is it that makes Nibbana unique?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 pm
Nirvana obviously isn't becoming, although it is a state,
a dimension
, a refuge, etc.
"Monks, there are these nine step-by-step dwellings. Which nine? The first jhāna, the second jhāna, the third jhāna, the fourth jhāna, the dimension of the infinitude of space, the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the cessation of perception & feeling. These are the nine step-by-step dwellings." [1]
This is what people keep saying that you seem to think it is a meditative state, one of the Arupa Jhanas.

Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade Arupa Dimension. This is Impossible. This cannot exist.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:05 pm

inb4;
cessation of perception & feeling is dimension, that is false and not even a logical interpretation of the passage.
Cessation of perception and feeling is cessation of all Dimensions or any kind of material or immaterial existence.
This is is because perception and feeling are conjoined, they are same event basicly different interpretation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."
Perception, Feeling, Consciousness these are all Aggregates, they also constitute the Immaterial Realms that can last for very long time but not eternally because there is no system that can eternally provide the conditions for continual arising of a formation material or immaterial, with or without a body.

Actually even an unformed formation would have the potential to gain footing or being formed somewhere if it was to be made somehow, otherwise it is postulating something in the impossible realm again. Ie unborn human would be born in human world.

Conceptual Nibbana, the Knowledge, the "Concept of a thing is not the Thing", in this sense Idea of Nibbana, imagination of Nibbana, Nibbana as we know it, That ceases with the cessation of Nama&Rupa. Nibbana is uncaused therefore not a formation.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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aflatun
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by aflatun » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:47 pm

It’s pretty much a buyers market. You can have any doctrine of Nibbana you want!
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

perkele
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by perkele » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:58 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:14 am
All phenomena ( damma) is subject to momentary changes as the universe or universes is in an eternal flux and rotation.
Wrong.

sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā — "all saṅkhārā (conditioned things) are impermanent"
sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā — "all saṅkhārā are unsatisfactory"
sabbe dhammā anattā

All saṅkhārā are aniccā, but not all dhammā.
Nibbāna is a dhamma that does not belong to saṅkhārā. Nibbāna is asankhata. Nibbāna is not aniccā.

perkele
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by perkele » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:11 pm

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:27 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:55 am
Possibly, the term "a + pavattā" does not refer to the non-continuance of Nibbana but, instead, refers to the non-continuance of samsara, i.e. to non-continuance of 'vatta'.
I second DooDoots interpretation. The non-continuance of everything else. Does that imply "eternity"? No.
If you ask me, I think it implies the cessation of anything temporal, or "the end of time as we know it". Nibbāna is "out of this world" and not subject to time, hence concepts of eternity or non-eternity, or duration of any kind, do not apply

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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:48 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm
Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade … This is Impossible.

Those are the terms describing nirvana.

Except impossible.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:02 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:48 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm
Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade … This is Impossible.

Those are the terms describing nirvana. Except for impossible.
you see how you selectively ignored my words. I choose my words as carefully as i can when i am formulating a concept.
When i say;
Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade Arupa Dimension.
The object of this sentence is "Arupa Dimension" which is attributed with all three of these qualities.
  • Eternal
    Permanent
    Everlasting
How is this a correct representation:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm
Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade … This is Impossible.
It is bad to slander others in this way, this is a truth in the world and in the discipline of the noble ones.
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:48 pm
Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade … This is Impossible.
Those are the terms describing nirvana. Except for impossible.
How is this related to;
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm
Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade Arupa Dimension.
:shrug:

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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:10 pm

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44

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