The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

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phil
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The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by phil »

Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour. I may be misrepresenting what he said - I was doing something else as I listened - but I'm sure he mentionned the global warming part. I'm not familiar with that kind of teaching of a cosmic ruling energy dealing out mass justice, have never come across it in what I've read in the suttanta. Is that sort of thing in there? I'm fairly comfortable with it as a kind of motivating concept, but doesn't seem that it could be in line with Buddhist teaching on reality and it certainly sounds old testament-ish. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very interested in Chinese language as those who've listened to his MN talks know, could it be a Mahayana teaching sneaking into his point of view?

Metta,

Phil
Last edited by phil on Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Phil
Sharon Stone - first thing that came to mind when I read your post, remember the earthquake in china.

I think someone has pointed out a reference where the Buddha says the Dhamma & Kamma does not act in that manner in reference to her comments, but the Dhamma just is, it isn't some cosmic force dealing out punishments & rewards we do that to ourselves with our actions.
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by phil »

Manapa wrote:Hi Phil
Sharon Stone - first thing that came to mind when I read your post, remember the earthquake in china.

I think someone has pointed out a reference where the Buddha says the Dhamma & Kamma does not act in that manner in reference to her comments, but the Dhamma just is, it isn't some cosmic force dealing out punishments & rewards we do that to ourselves with our actions.
Hi Manapa

For sure. I must have misheard. Bhikkhu Bodhi must have been referring to wrong views that existed in the Buddha's day rather than the Buddha's teaching.

Metta,

Phil

p.s while I'm here, thanks Manapa and the other gents for feedback in the micro/macro bhava thread. Deep stuff I'll have to ingest for awhile.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by tiltbillings »

phil wrote:Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour.
I sure hope he did not say this as you are presenting it
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by cooran »

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly.
If you are maintaining that Bhikkhu Bodhi said such a thing, you need to give a traceable link to where we can also hear this.
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by Fede »

I really am all ears....... :shock:
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Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

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Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by phil »

Chris wrote:
Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly.
If you are maintaining that Bhikkhu Bodhi said such a thing, you need to give a traceable link to where we can also hear this.
Hi Chris

Yes, you're quite right. I'm being disrespectful by even suggesting it. I'm doing my year-end housecleaning today (which I was starting as I listened to that talk) so I'll listen again. And give any clarifications I come up with. Shortly.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by catmoon »

phil wrote:Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour. I may be misrepresenting what he said - I was doing something else as I listened - but I'm sure he mentionned the global warming part. I'm not familiar with that kind of teaching of a cosmic ruling energy dealing out mass justice, have never come across it in what I've read in the suttanta. Is that sort of thing in there? I'm fairly comfortable with it as a kind of motivating concept, but doesn't seem that it could be in line with Buddhist teaching on reality and it certainly sounds old testament-ish. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very interested in Chinese language as those who've listened to his MN talks know, could it be a Mahayana teaching sneaking into his point of view?

Metta,

Phil
I would bet he was just pointing out that cause and effect have the appearance of a Cosmic Judge and appear to act like one sometimes. If you pump megatons of gack into the atmosphere and it causes a drought, the chain of events is purely mundane, but it might appear similar to the actions of a Cosmic Judge. And it often appears so, for we can often see clearly the bad consequences of a bad action.

However, it is a huge leap to jump to the position that Dharma is, in fact, a cosmic judge. And it seems to me another huge leap to think that someone of BB's level of education would fall into such a belief.
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by phil »

catmoon wrote:
phil wrote:Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour. I may be misrepresenting what he said - I was doing something else as I listened - but I'm sure he mentionned the global warming part. I'm not familiar with that kind of teaching of a cosmic ruling energy dealing out mass justice, have never come across it in what I've read in the suttanta. Is that sort of thing in there? I'm fairly comfortable with it as a kind of motivating concept, but doesn't seem that it could be in line with Buddhist teaching on reality and it certainly sounds old testament-ish. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very interested in Chinese language as those who've listened to his MN talks know, could it be a Mahayana teaching sneaking into his point of view?

Metta,

Phil
I would bet he was just pointing out that cause and effect have the appearance of a Cosmic Judge and appear to act like one sometimes. If you pump megatons of gack into the atmosphere and it causes a drought, the chain of events is purely mundane, but it might appear similar to the actions of a Cosmic Judge. And it often appears so, for we can often see clearly the bad consequences of a bad action.

However, it is a huge leap to jump to the position that Dharma is, in fact, a cosmic judge. And it seems to me another huge leap to think that someone of BB's level of education would fall into such a belief.
Hi Catmoon and Chris and all interested.

OK, I found the exact part of the talk which can be found here.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures based on his book "In the Buddha's Words" http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
are available here: http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's in the talk on Chapter 4, part a. At the 13:00 mark roughly, Bhikkhu Bodhi starts to talk about the meaning of the word "Dhamma." He talks about the "Indian conception" and "Indian spirituality" that suggests he's not talking about the Buddha's teaching in particular. But he talks at some length about it in a way taht could confuse newcomers. Then around the 19:00 mark, he says that there are suttas that say that when people are behaving in immoral ways, the heavens can stop to rain, the sun not shine etc, and says that perhaps we can see this in global warming, how people's greed leads to eventual changes in the climate. So as Catmoon says, he is just saying that greed can operate in ways that lead to results that might suggest a cosmic judge dealing out punshment, it's just greed at work, that makes sense. But how about these suttas that he says have the sun not shining, rain not falling, because of the behaviour of mankind? Has anyone come across these? I'm not intending to criticize Bhikkhu Bodhi here, though I think he presented the topic here in a way that could lead newcomers to confuse the predominant Indian thinking at that time with the Buddha's teaching. Anyways, have a listen, if you're interested and sorry for having caused any consternation!

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by catmoon »

Understanding doesn't come easy and BB was never one to sugarcoat the difficulties or shy away from them. But yes, one certainly would not want to walk into that talk in the middle! A classic demonstration that context determines meaning.
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by cooran »

Hello phil, all,

There is a mention in this article by Prof. Lily de Silva - which could have been what BB was refering to?

The Buddhist Attitude Towards Nature by Lily de Silva
EXCERPT
Thus several suttas from the Pali canon show that early Buddhism believes there to be a close relationship between human morality and the natural environment. This idea has been systematized in the theory of the five natural laws (pañca niyamadhamma) in the later commentaries.7 According to this theory, in the cosmos there are five natural laws or forces at work, namely utuniyama (lit. "season-law"), bijaniyama (lit. "seed-law"), cittaniyama, kammaniyama, and dhammaniyama. They can be translated as physical laws, biological laws, psychological laws, moral laws, and causal laws, respectively. While the first four laws operate within their respective spheres, the last-mentioned law of causality operates within each of them as well as among them.
This means that the physical environment of any given area conditions the growth and development of its biological component, i.e. flora and fauna. These in turn influence the thought pattern of the people interacting with them. Modes of thinking determine moral standards. The opposite process of interaction is also possible. The morals of man influence not only the psychological makeup of the people but the biological and physical environment of the area as well. Thus the five laws demonstrate that man and nature are bound together in a reciprocal causal relationship with changes in one necessarily bringing about changes in the other.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... itude.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by phil »

Thanks Chris. Interesting commentary. We still don't know what the suttas are that Bhikkhu Bodhi was referring to, but I guess it's not that important to find them. I was thinking of some parittas, like the Mora Sutta, in which if I recall correctly, a peacock looks to the sun at the beginning of its day and the end of its day, and thanks it for the protection and wisdom it provides. It seems like the Buddha's great wisdom is symbolized or embodied by the sun in that sutta. But there's nothing there about the sun "deviating from its course" (as BB puts it) because of bad behaviour of humans. But really, not an important point to figure out.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by mikenz66 »

Interesting subject. I'm planning to work through those talks soon.

Without taking any particular stand on the details of what Bhikkhu Bodhi said, I find it intriguing that whenever someone mentions that our kamma can have far-reaching and unpleasant vipaka many get rather defensive. I recall a long and bitter thread on E-Sangha about this issue. According to the Buddha it is futile to speculate about the details of the workings of kamma but it is certainly said in the Suttas that it can have unpleasant effects. These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow, or being killed by a tsumami...

Metta
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike, all,
mikenz66 wrote:These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow...
It's interesting... after reading quite a few suttas, I'm becoming increasing convinced that these random stray cows are simply a literary device to provide an opportunity for the Buddha to detail the status of a bhikkhu (e.g. arahant, non-returner) to others (bhikkhus, and in turn, us). There's a certain standardness to them.

As for the tsunamis and such... if you feel you can resolve what happens in these events with commentarial expositions such as the five niyamas, or Abhidhamma classifications such as the twenty-four paccaya which attempt to provide a micro-level analysis of causality then that's fine (or even your own scientific inclinations for that matter). Or of course you could take a "suttavadin" approach and disregard these teachings of the elders, but I don't think this would be your inclination. Either way, I'd be interested in know how you resolve the loose ends! :)

As for the question of "The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?", the wardens of hell come to mind. The Devadūta Sutta (The Divine Messengers) of the Majjhima Nikaya...

http://www.yellowrobe.com/pali-canon/su ... ngers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...speaks of such things as...
10. “Now the wardens of hell torture him with the fivefold transfixing. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through his belly. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

11. “Next the wardens of hell throw him down and pare him with axes. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

12. “Next the wardens of hell set him with his feet up and his head down and pare him with adzes. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

13. “Next the wardens of hell harness him to a chariot and drive him back and forth across ground that is burning, blazing, and glowing. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

14. “Next the wardens of hell make him climb up and down a great mound of coals that are burning, blazing, and glowing. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

15. “Next the wardens of hell take him feet up and head down and plunge him into a red-hot metal cauldron that is burning, blazing, and glowing. He is cooked there in a swirl of froth. And as he is being cooked there in a swirl of froth, he is swept now up, now down, and now across. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

(... and it continues thusly for quite some time)
This sutta speaks in mundane, conventional terms referring to a "person"...
“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you ― an intelligent and mature man ― “I too am subject to birth, I am not exempt from birth: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’ He says: ‘I was unable, venerable sir, I was negligent.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, through negligence you have failed to do good by body, speech, and mind. Certainly they will deal with you according to your negligence. But this evil action of yours was not done by your mother or your father, or by your brother or your sister, or by your friends and companions, or by your kinsmen and relatives, or by recluses and brahmins, or by gods: this evil action was done by you yourself, and you yourself will experience its result.’
Yet there are other suttas, spoken by the Buddha instead of King Rama, that speak at a more profound level, such as SN 12.17 (transcribed from Nanamoli's "The Life Of The Buddha according to the Pali Canon") which are deep, connected with emptiness, and transcend the concept of a person (or "you yourself") in relating the causes of suffering...
The Buddha @ SN 12.17 wrote:If one asserts: 'He who makes (suffering) feels (it): being one existent from the beginning, his suffering is of his own making,' then one arrives at eternalism. But if one asserts: 'One makes (suffering), another feels (it): being one existent crushed out by feeling, his suffering is of another's making,' then one arrives at annihilationism. Instead of resorting to either of these extremes, a Perfect One expounds the Dhamma by the middle way:... (that is, by dependent origination and cessation)."
Who then suffers as a result of whose action, and upon whom would 'cosmic enforcement' take place?

:thinking:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow...
retrofuturist wrote: It's interesting... after reading quite a few suttas, I'm becoming increasing convinced that these random stray cows are simply a literary device to provide an opportunity for the Buddha to detail the status of a bhikkhu (e.g. arahant, non-returner) to others (bhikkhus, and in turn, us). There's a certain standardness to them.
Well, the stoning was Angulimala...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
I don't think anyone would find it surprising that Angulimala would be stoned, after killing 999 people. Why, then would there be surprise that other good or bad things that happen could be a result of kamma?

Of course, since the workings of kamma are said to be unfathomable to anyone other than a Buddha it would be silly to look at some situation and try to say that it was because of such-and-such a particular kamma. But I think that it is therefore equally silly to assert that it could not be the result of some (unknown) kamma.

The point is that actions have consequences. This concept (for more on concepts vs ultimate reality see this thread:http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2986)helps us to maintain our sila. So I prefer to take a forward-looking, rather than backward-looking perspective.

Metta
Mike
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