one word to defeat the eternalists

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dylanj
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:46 am

You say this post is to avoid debate, & that's great. But eternalists have already ruined it by mistranslating passages to suggest nibbana is permanent.

Fun-fact: nibbana is described as non-continuing. It is beyond time & is not permanent or eternal. The word translated as permanent is dhuvam meaning stable, not permanent.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 am

There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:57 am

appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting, an epithet of nibbāna

Image

https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Last edited by dylanj on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am

another one

akālika - timeless

This is yet another reason why eternalists are slandering the Buddha out of misfounded fear of annihilation. The cessation of existence (bhavanirodha, nibbāna) isn't something that happens in time, after which the rest of 'existence' goes on without the extinguished (nibbāna) 'person'; nor is it something that happens after which the extinguished 'person' goes on along with such 'existence' - it might as well be called the cessation of time, too.

It is not impermanent. It is not eternal. It is a stopping, the stopping of birth-death thisness-otherwiseness (itthabhāvaññathābhāva) saṁsāra, beyond which there is no designation of time.
Last edited by dylanj on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 am

It is also slander of the Buddha to translate dhuva as eternal. Dhuva means stable. It is at times used in conjunction with sassata, which does mean eternal (obviously they don't mean the same exact thing if used together - meanwhile the association yet disparity between stable & eternal is also obvious), but in such contexts involve, unsurprisingly, eternalists whom the Buddha refutes.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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bodom
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by bodom » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:12 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 am
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Feel free to add any further comments to this thread:

Why is Nirvana permanent
viewtopic.php?t=11468

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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dylanj
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am

I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:18 am

bodom wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:12 am
dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 am
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Feel free to add any further comments to this thread:

Why is Nirvana permanent
viewtopic.php?t=11468

:namaste:
what a depressing thread

i just made a new topic
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:59 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:57 am
appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting, an epithet of nibbāna

Image

https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Possibly, the picture might need to be read more carefully, which states: "appavatta; freedom from samsara; i.e., Nibbana". This might be saying: "appavatta is the non-continuing, non-persisting of samsara or vatta".

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DooDoot
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:07 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am
another one

akālika - timeless
akālika
mfn.
not dependent on time; not limited to a particular time; immediate, immediately effective, without delay
And while this explanation was being given, [without delay] the hearts of the group of five monks, through not clinging, were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

SN 22.59
When he does not cling, he is not agitated, [without delay] he personally attains Nibbana.

MN 37
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:16 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 am
It is also slander of the Buddha to translate dhuva as eternal. Dhuva means stable.
Possibly.
dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 am
It is at times used in conjunction with sassata, which does mean eternal (obviously they don't mean the same exact thing if used together - meanwhile the association yet disparity between stable & eternal is also obvious), but in such contexts involve, unsurprisingly, eternalists whom the Buddha refutes.
The suttas appear to say "Eternalism" is related views about "self" (rather than a characteristic of Nibbana).

He speaks thus: 'The self and the world are eternal, barren, steadfast as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar.

DN 1
Kathañca, bhikkhave, olīyanti eke? Bhavārāmā, bhikkhave, devamanussā bhavaratā bhavasammuditā tesaṃ bhavanirodhāya dhamme desiyamāne cittaṃ na pakkhandati na pasīdati na santiṭṭhati nādhimuccati. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave olīyanti eke.

And how do some adhere? Human & divine beings enjoy becoming, delight in becoming, are satisfied with becoming. When the Dhamma is being taught for the sake of the cessation of becoming, their minds do not take to it, are not calmed by it, do not settle on it or become resolved on it. This is how some adhere.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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DooDoot
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:20 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am
I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
:console:

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Sam Vara
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am
I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
It would be a timorous eternalist who was scared by two words and their contestable interpretations. Until they know for themselves, "defeat" would merely consist of switching allegiance to another speculative view.

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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 am
dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am
I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
It would be a timorous eternalist who was scared by two words and their contestable interpretations. Until they know for themselves, "defeat" would merely consist of switching allegiance to another speculative view.
Nicely put. :thumbsup:

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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by binocular » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:41 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am
I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic
Youg jedi, a lot to learn you yet have.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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