one word to defeat the eternalists

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dylanj
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by dylanj »

You say this post is to avoid debate, & that's great. But eternalists have already ruined it by mistranslating passages to suggest nibbana is permanent.

Fun-fact: nibbana is described as non-continuing. It is beyond time & is not permanent or eternal. The word translated as permanent is dhuvam meaning stable, not permanent.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by dylanj »

There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj »

appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting, an epithet of nibbāna

Image

https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Last edited by dylanj on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj »

another one

akālika - timeless

This is yet another reason why eternalists are slandering the Buddha out of misfounded fear of annihilation. The cessation of existence (bhavanirodha, nibbāna) isn't something that happens in time, after which the rest of 'existence' goes on without the extinguished (nibbāna) 'person'; nor is it something that happens after which the extinguished 'person' goes on along with such 'existence' - it might as well be called the cessation of time, too.

It is not impermanent. It is not eternal. It is a stopping, the stopping of birth-death thisness-otherwiseness (itthabhāvaññathābhāva) saṁsāra, beyond which there is no designation of time.
Last edited by dylanj on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj »

It is also slander of the Buddha to translate dhuva as eternal. Dhuva means stable. It is at times used in conjunction with sassata, which does mean eternal (obviously they don't mean the same exact thing if used together - meanwhile the association yet disparity between stable & eternal is also obvious), but in such contexts involve, unsurprisingly, eternalists whom the Buddha refutes.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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bodom
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by bodom »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 am
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Feel free to add any further comments to this thread:

Why is Nirvana permanent
viewtopic.php?t=11468

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by dylanj »

I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Beautiful and inspiring words about Nibbana

Post by dylanj »

bodom wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:12 am
dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 am
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth. It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Feel free to add any further comments to this thread:

Why is Nirvana permanent
viewtopic.php?t=11468

:namaste:
what a depressing thread

i just made a new topic
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:57 am appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting, an epithet of nibbāna

Image

https://suttacentral.net/en/ud8.1
Possibly, the picture might need to be read more carefully, which states: "appavatta; freedom from samsara; i.e., Nibbana". This might be saying: "appavatta is the non-continuing, non-persisting of samsara or vatta".
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am another one

akālika - timeless
akālika
mfn.
not dependent on time; not limited to a particular time; immediate, immediately effective, without delay
And while this explanation was being given, [without delay] the hearts of the group of five monks, through not clinging, were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

SN 22.59
When he does not cling, he is not agitated, [without delay] he personally attains Nibbana.

MN 37
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 amIt is also slander of the Buddha to translate dhuva as eternal. Dhuva means stable.
Possibly.
dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 amIt is at times used in conjunction with sassata, which does mean eternal (obviously they don't mean the same exact thing if used together - meanwhile the association yet disparity between stable & eternal is also obvious), but in such contexts involve, unsurprisingly, eternalists whom the Buddha refutes.
The suttas appear to say "Eternalism" is related views about "self" (rather than a characteristic of Nibbana).

He speaks thus: 'The self and the world are eternal, barren, steadfast as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar.

DN 1
Kathañca, bhikkhave, olīyanti eke? Bhavārāmā, bhikkhave, devamanussā bhavaratā bhavasammuditā tesaṃ bhavanirodhāya dhamme desiyamāne cittaṃ na pakkhandati na pasīdati na santiṭṭhati nādhimuccati. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave olīyanti eke.

And how do some adhere? Human & divine beings enjoy becoming, delight in becoming, are satisfied with becoming. When the Dhamma is being taught for the sake of the cessation of becoming, their minds do not take to it, are not calmed by it, do not settle on it or become resolved on it. This is how some adhere.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 amI hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
:console:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by Sam Vara »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
It would be a timorous eternalist who was scared by two words and their contestable interpretations. Until they know for themselves, "defeat" would merely consist of switching allegiance to another speculative view.
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by Saengnapha »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 am
dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 am I hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic :) :anjali:
It would be a timorous eternalist who was scared by two words and their contestable interpretations. Until they know for themselves, "defeat" would merely consist of switching allegiance to another speculative view.
Nicely put. :thumbsup:
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Re: one word to defeat the eternalists

Post by binocular »

dylanj wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 amI hope this post doesn't scare the eternalists here as badly as my last one on the topic
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