On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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James Tan
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by James Tan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:06 am

But then if one happens to be UG one won't be blathering here .

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:32 am

This video was made in 1988 in Seaside, California, which is just north of Monterrey on the coast. U.G. talks with a small group of people, some who know him for awhile, some new. The video's quality is not so good, but the sound is fine. Someone titled this Demystifying Oneself and Self.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am

*[Moderator Note: The following three posts have been moved here from a thread in General Theravada discussion.]*
Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:58 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:03 am
My view is just as deluded as any view out there. After all, aren't all views understood as deluded by the Buddha? If you follow any teaching, you are following a set of words and 'possibly' the experience of another, not your own. This has been echoed in Buddhist thought for centuries throughout the various traditions. I am not against a gradual path. It always leads to what I am talking about in every case, the inability to free oneself from oneself. It is a fight deluded from the start. But we as humans have to follow something. Why? We are conditioned to do so, not even by choice but by condition. I also find myself trying 'to do' something to change my experience. I also experience jhanas, so what! I've had many unusual experiences/insights and they had no intrinsic effect on this dream of existence. It seems to me that it is mainly an intellectual attempt to control oneself so that something else may happen. That something else is probably why people are trying so hard 'to get there'. I see 'there' as here, nothing more. No there.

I understand what it is to follow a teaching, a teacher, a path. What it is to study, meditate, and to try to become a better person. I've done it, still do it, because there is no action other than this that anyone can do. Outside of the behavioral changes and calming neurotic impulses, I don't see any activity like jhanas, that lead anywhere but in circles. It is all part of the samsaric experience which includes the 'I' maker and the separation into subject/object. No intellectual idea or insight changes this. This is why I prefer the negative thinkers, the via negativa, those who have come to understand that they are not in control and have given up the idea of control and action. Those who have given up their will 'to become' anything, to understand anything. To me, not-knowing is the beginning of dispassion. Not-knowing is letting go because you see that knowledge is not your ally. It is a worldly activity and thoroughly conditioned. This is a turning away from all of that including enlightenment, Buddhas, U.G.'s, etc. It is not a path of hope and belief. Faith comes closer, but not faith that one is going to reach a goal.
Hello Saengnapha,

I don't think the Buddha taught that all views are deluded but he made clear distinctions between right view and wrong view.

While we all aim for final liberation from suffering, i began to see that it is not either white or black. There are many benefits of following a spiritual path and i think reducing it to the final goal leads no where because it would be most likely done for the wrong reasons. I had all fantasies about Nibanna (which i am still not free from) telling myself that i should not waste time to try to change myself but aim at the root of the problem, then i started to see the absurdity of what i am doing: i want to be enlightened but at the same time, i am harmful and full of shit.

What i am hoping for now is to be become a decent human being which is quite difficult. If i can leave this world harmless and do enough good to offset all the damage i have done so far in my life, i would consider this a success. Whatever damage i have done in the past or which i am still doing is my own ignorance, and whatever good i do is due to the lord Buddha. I am nothing but harmfulness and stupidity without the Buddha's guidance.

Peace :anjali:
You know, I find it quite impossible to second guess what the Buddha really taught and what has been manipulated by others throughout history for their own gains. I think most of what is called Buddhism seems corrupted by the organizations, sects, adaptations, that have occurred for the last 2500 years. When you take the idea that only what the Buddha has said was true, it sets in motion another set of complications that are unnecessary to sort through. What else can we call it but baggage? Concepts, stories, rules and regs.

One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state. I mention this because it was an important point that he would reiterate from time to time. He used to call it 'knocking him off'. Each successive event knocks off the previous one. I think science comes closer than most religious descriptions of how we function and how we create 'a sense of self', identity, & time/space. The creative force of nature is still the great mystery and yet it seems absent in the way most people live their lives or think about it.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am


One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state.
Yep, that UG guy was really lacking in discernment and actually quite delusional.....but that is not really too important to most people following buddhist websites. Sometimes I wonder why you keep bringing it up.
chownah

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am


One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state.
Yep, that UG guy was really lacking in discernment and actually quite delusional.....but that is not really too important to most people following buddhist websites. Sometimes I wonder why you keep bringing it up.
chownah
Ever met him?

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:29 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am


One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state.
Yep, that UG guy was really lacking in discernment and actually quite delusional.....but that is not really too important to most people following buddhist websites. Sometimes I wonder why you keep bringing it up.
chownah
Ever met him?
I don't need to have met him....I simply take your advice from another thread which is "After all, aren't all views understood as deluded by the Buddha? " It seems that you are of the view that all views are deluded so this would it seems apply to UGK as well.
chownah

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:45 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am


One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state.
Yep, that UG guy was really lacking in discernment and actually quite delusional.....but that is not really too important to most people following buddhist websites. Sometimes I wonder why you keep bringing it up.
chownah
Ever met him?

No we have not .. but having seen quite a few of his videos .. they seem to go like this

chownah - Hi Guru I am chownah.

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - Are you chownah? How do you know you are chownah?

chownah - Because my parents named me chownah and my passport says so.

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - Your parents ..? They gave birth to a physical body they named chownah .. atoms and molecules .. but where is chownah?

chownah - I am here. I know I exist :rolleye:

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - No you are not chownah!! You think you are .. but does the wall in front of you exist?

chownah - Yes :?

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - Of course not you idiot :roll: .. can the wall think I exist .. you said you exist because you know you exist .. the wall in front of you cannot know .. so it does not exist :lol:

and so on .. and on and on and on ad nauseam

I am not saying he was a fraud .. all I am saying the Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher style is very old to Asians (southern and eastern) .. You go to Japan and ask an old zen master what is Buddha .. he takes out a brush pen and draws a large O and keeps silent.

It is very old trope of Indian gurus to carry on neti, neti conversation .. not this, not that description of Brahman delivered with a flair usually to semi-educated western audience who are fascinated by the East.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Bundokji
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Bundokji » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:20 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am
You know, I find it quite impossible to second guess what the Buddha really taught and what has been manipulated by others throughout history for their own gains. I think most of what is called Buddhism seems corrupted by the organizations, sects, adaptations, that have occurred for the last 2500 years. When you take the idea that only what the Buddha has said was true, it sets in motion another set of complications that are unnecessary to sort through. What else can we call it but baggage? Concepts, stories, rules and regs.

One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state. I mention this because it was an important point that he would reiterate from time to time. He used to call it 'knocking him off'. Each successive event knocks off the previous one. I think science comes closer than most religious descriptions of how we function and how we create 'a sense of self', identity, & time/space. The creative force of nature is still the great mystery and yet it seems absent in the way most people live their lives or think about it.
Is not knowing our lack of knowledge of what the Buddha exactly taught and what has been manipulated by others throughout history for their own gains is based on your reasoning abilities? So you can use the same reasoning ability to judging the teachings based on their impact on your life and of others if you followed them. What could go wrong by following teachings that encourage investigation to develop wisdom, morality and mindfulness?

I am saying the above to differentiate between our lack of knowledge, and the possibility of misusing it. To what extent, do you believe, that confusion is a choice?

Also, in my mind, our need for a path to follow even if its presented in allegorical and mythical terms is not a denial of not knowing, but an acknowledgment of it.

Within the choices we have, we can do nothing waiting for the natural state U.G spoke about to magically manifest itself, or we can practice on avoiding harm, doing good and cleans the mind. Either way, we are going to deal with the consequences of our actions/inactions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:10 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:20 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am
You know, I find it quite impossible to second guess what the Buddha really taught and what has been manipulated by others throughout history for their own gains. I think most of what is called Buddhism seems corrupted by the organizations, sects, adaptations, that have occurred for the last 2500 years. When you take the idea that only what the Buddha has said was true, it sets in motion another set of complications that are unnecessary to sort through. What else can we call it but baggage? Concepts, stories, rules and regs.

One of the most enigmatic things that I ever heard U.G. say was that each person who comes into this natural state, touches life at a point which renders everything and every other teacher/teaching that has happened before, obsolete. Why? Because everything that has happened before is conditioned and 'washed' away in this event of nature. It would render everything that he says, obsolete, in the event of you or I being in the natural state. I mention this because it was an important point that he would reiterate from time to time. He used to call it 'knocking him off'. Each successive event knocks off the previous one. I think science comes closer than most religious descriptions of how we function and how we create 'a sense of self', identity, & time/space. The creative force of nature is still the great mystery and yet it seems absent in the way most people live their lives or think about it.
Is not knowing our lack of knowledge of what the Buddha exactly taught and what has been manipulated by others throughout history for their own gains is based on your reasoning abilities? So you can use the same reasoning ability to judging the teachings based on their impact on your life and of others if you followed them. What could go wrong by following teachings that encourage investigation to develop wisdom, morality and mindfulness?
When I talk about not-knowing, it does not mean a lack of knowledge in the sense of not having facts/information to live your life. I am talking about a state of attention where knowledge 'about' things is not present, not active. It is a fully aware state that is not grasping, not interpreting, not verbalizing what our present experience is. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, but it is not expressed in words, but presence. This is very hard to describe but it is not an uncommon experience for some. We put aside what U.G. or the Buddha said, and simply be present as experience, whether it be internal or external. You stop judging everything without exception. Don't mistake my saying this as a condemnation of what you think the Buddha said or didn't say. It doesn't matter. You put it all aside.
I am saying the above to differentiate between our lack of knowledge, and the possibility of misusing it. To what extent, do you believe, that confusion is a choice?
Confusion doesn't exist in not-knowing. It is only within your field of knowledge that such conflicts happen. This is not in that field.
Within the choices we have, we can do nothing waiting for the natural state U.G spoke about to magically manifest itself, or we can practice on avoiding harm, doing good and cleans the mind. Either way, we are going to deal with the consequences of our actions/inactions.
Again, choices are in the field of knowledge, so is waiting for for the 'natural state' or 'enlightenment'. In not-knowing, you are not waiting for anything. You are present as your own experience. There is no direction because you don't need any. It is not really possible to do harm when you are present. You can only do what needs to be done. Action is not separate from not-knowing.
Also, in my mind, our need for a path to follow even if its presented in allegorical and mythical terms is not a denial of not knowing, but an acknowledgment of it.
You are misconstruing what I mean by not-knowing. It is not ignorance. It is presence. It is a fulfillment of what you call 'path', it is a 'fruit', but it is not a result of what you have done, but by what you have discarded. I am now using your terms to try to describe what I am talking about. I never call this a fruit or result. It is more of a state of the body. Dispassion seems closer to describing this.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:29 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm

Yep, that UG guy was really lacking in discernment and actually quite delusional.....but that is not really too important to most people following buddhist websites. Sometimes I wonder why you keep bringing it up.
chownah
Ever met him?
I don't need to have met him....I simply take your advice from another thread which is "After all, aren't all views understood as deluded by the Buddha? " It seems that you are of the view that all views are deluded so this would it seems apply to UGK as well.
chownah
All views need to be discarded including the Buddha's and U.G's. Forget about deluded or not deluded. These people serve to get your attention, to get you contemplating all of this. That's good! The rest is up to you. You can't take anything they say and make it your own because it is not your own. What is your own is your present experience. When you 'enter' your own experience, you discard what you know about it. Perhaps this is not easy to understand. It is like the subject loses its center. That center is knowledge, all your conditioned thoughts and feelings. When there is no center, there is not-knowing. There is joy, rapture, and a knowingness that is not predicated on fabrication. It is a bodily state of dispassion minus the labeling. Conceptualization doesn't touch it.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Bundokji » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:28 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:10 pm
When I talk about not-knowing, it does not mean a lack of knowledge in the sense of not having facts/information to live your life. I am talking about a state of attention where knowledge 'about' things is not present, not active. It is a fully aware state that is not grasping, not interpreting, not verbalizing what our present experience is. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, but it is not expressed in words, but presence. This is very hard to describe but it is not an uncommon experience for some. We put aside what U.G. or the Buddha said, and simply be present as experience, whether it be internal or external. You stop judging everything without exception. Don't mistake my saying this as a condemnation of what you think the Buddha said or didn't say. It doesn't matter. You put it all aside.

----------------

Confusion doesn't exist in not-knowing. It is only within your field of knowledge that such conflicts happen. This is not in that field.

---------------
Again, choices are in the field of knowledge, so is waiting for for the 'natural state' or 'enlightenment'. In not-knowing, you are not waiting for anything. You are present as your own experience. There is no direction because you don't need any. It is not really possible to do harm when you are present. You can only do what needs to be done. Action is not separate from not-knowing.

--------------

You are misconstruing what I mean by not-knowing. It is not ignorance. It is presence. It is a fulfillment of what you call 'path', it is a 'fruit', but it is not a result of what you have done, but by what you have discarded. I am now using your terms to try to describe what I am talking about. I never call this a fruit or result. It is more of a state of the body. Dispassion seems closer to describing this.
I am not going to dispute what you are saying, but do you think talking about a state of not knowing is going to help anyone?

I guess you might agree that there is conventional wisdom, or you disagree? Would it be wise (from a conventional point of view) to talk about a state of not knowing (using conventional knowledge to convey it)?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:37 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:28 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:10 pm
When I talk about not-knowing, it does not mean a lack of knowledge in the sense of not having facts/information to live your life. I am talking about a state of attention where knowledge 'about' things is not present, not active. It is a fully aware state that is not grasping, not interpreting, not verbalizing what our present experience is. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, but it is not expressed in words, but presence. This is very hard to describe but it is not an uncommon experience for some. We put aside what U.G. or the Buddha said, and simply be present as experience, whether it be internal or external. You stop judging everything without exception. Don't mistake my saying this as a condemnation of what you think the Buddha said or didn't say. It doesn't matter. You put it all aside.

----------------

Confusion doesn't exist in not-knowing. It is only within your field of knowledge that such conflicts happen. This is not in that field.

---------------
Again, choices are in the field of knowledge, so is waiting for for the 'natural state' or 'enlightenment'. In not-knowing, you are not waiting for anything. You are present as your own experience. There is no direction because you don't need any. It is not really possible to do harm when you are present. You can only do what needs to be done. Action is not separate from not-knowing.

--------------

You are misconstruing what I mean by not-knowing. It is not ignorance. It is presence. It is a fulfillment of what you call 'path', it is a 'fruit', but it is not a result of what you have done, but by what you have discarded. I am now using your terms to try to describe what I am talking about. I never call this a fruit or result. It is more of a state of the body. Dispassion seems closer to describing this.
I am not going to dispute what you are saying, but do you think talking about a state of not knowing is going to help anyone?

I guess you might agree that there is conventional wisdom, or you disagree? Would it be wise (from a conventional point of view) to talk about a state of not knowing (using conventional knowledge to convey it)?
Yes, it helped me and others I have met, only when I took it to heart. Taking it to heart is the beginning.
I am only using conventional knowledge to convey this. What else is there? Wisdom is the wrong word, I think. There is information. Some are facts, some are not. Wisdom seems to reside in not-knowing. This is the mystery that the Christian mystics touched upon in their poems and contemplations. It seems to be missing here in Theravadaland. Here, most are involved with gaining knowledge, imo. This is what scholars do, not contemplatives.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Bundokji » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:17 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:37 pm
Yes, it helped me and others I have met, only when I took it to heart. Taking it to heart is the beginning.
I am only using conventional knowledge to convey this. What else is there? Wisdom is the wrong word, I think. There is information. Some are facts, some are not. Wisdom seems to reside in not-knowing. This is the mystery that the Christian mystics touched upon in their poems and contemplations. It seems to be missing here in Theravadaland. Here, most are involved with gaining knowledge, imo. This is what scholars do, not contemplatives.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but in Buddhism there is a distinction between mundane and supra mundane knowledge/wisdom. In the realm of Kamma/delusion, mundane wisdom is good Kamma, it does not end rebirth, but leads to better future rebirths.

For those who achieved supra mundane levels of wisdom, i am not sure if there is much to talk about anyway! This is why there is a nice Zen/Taoist proverb which says: Those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know.

I am not in a position to tell you what to do, i respect you and see wisdom when i read your contributions, but U.G himself used to send people away, he did not go preaching his natural state on a Buddhist forum.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:07 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:17 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:37 pm
Yes, it helped me and others I have met, only when I took it to heart. Taking it to heart is the beginning.
I am only using conventional knowledge to convey this. What else is there? Wisdom is the wrong word, I think. There is information. Some are facts, some are not. Wisdom seems to reside in not-knowing. This is the mystery that the Christian mystics touched upon in their poems and contemplations. It seems to be missing here in Theravadaland. Here, most are involved with gaining knowledge, imo. This is what scholars do, not contemplatives.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but in Buddhism there is a distinction between mundane and supra mundane knowledge/wisdom. In the realm of Kamma/delusion, mundane wisdom is good Kamma, it does not end rebirth, but leads to better future rebirths.

For those who achieved supra mundane levels of wisdom, i am not sure if there is much to talk about anyway! This is why there is a nice Zen/Taoist proverb which says: Those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know.

I am not in a position to tell you what to do, i respect you and see wisdom when i read your contributions, but U.G himself used to send people away, he did not go preaching his natural state on a Buddhist forum.
U.G. never sent anyone away. He would suggest that if someone didn't find what they were looking for, they could leave and go elsewhere. Or, he would say, I have nothing to give you, why have you come? His door was unlocked and open 24/7. No money involved. Anyone could approach him.

You see, the reason I post here in this thread goes back to my original post, how U.G. and the 3 Dharma Seals are related. The words don't need to be the same.

Keep in mind, I am not U.G. :D

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:03 am

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:45 am
No we have not .. but having seen quite a few of his videos .. they seem to go like this

chownah - Hi Guru I am chownah.

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - Are you chownah? How do you know you are chownah?

chownah - Because my parents named me chownah and my passport says so.

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - Your parents ..? They gave birth to a physical body they named chownah .. atoms and molecules .. but where is chownah?

chownah - I am here. I know I exist :rolleye:

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - No you are not chownah!! You think you are .. but does the wall in front of you exist?

chownah - Yes :?

Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher - Of course not you idiot :roll: .. can the wall think I exist .. you said you exist because you know you exist .. the wall in front of you cannot know .. so it does not exist :lol:

and so on .. and on and on and on ad nauseam

I am not saying he was a fraud .. all I am saying the Indian Guru/mystic/philosopher style is very old to Asians (southern and eastern) .. You go to Japan and ask an old zen master what is Buddha .. he takes out a brush pen and draws a large O and keeps silent.

It is very old trope of Indian gurus to carry on neti, neti conversation .. not this, not that description of Brahman delivered with a flair usually to semi-educated western audience who are fascinated by the East.

:namaste:
:namaste:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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