Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Zom
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:28 pm

Jhana is very common and easy in the suttas. Because it means calm.
Yes, sure, so easy that it is mentioned on par with levitation, clairvoyance, mind-reading, walking through the walls, etc etc in Vinaya Parajika Rule N4. 8-)

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:38 pm

it's sort of difficult, but not as difficult as sitting 12 hours
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:43 pm

it's sort of difficult, but not as difficult as sitting 12 hours
Sitting for 12 hours is just a natural outcome.

This is what arahants tell on the matter:


For seven days I sat in one spot,
absorbed in rapture & bliss.
On the eighth, I stretched out my legs,
having burst the mass
of darkness.



How light my body!
Touched by abundant
rapture & bliss,
—like a cotton tuft
borne on the breeze—
it seems to be floating
—my body!

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:46 pm

being calm is enough, for insight to be possible

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:07 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:51 pm

Ok, what I'm trying to say, is that I'm basing my statements upon what is said by the Buddha. And I don't know what basis your opinions have... maybe just personal preferences.
Meditative experience, teachers discourses, suttas, some monastic writings, other religions. Basically this is where I gather “the story” or wording that I use to discuss the path.
I also feel there is jhana for meditative concentration and then have experienced all 8 jhanas in a tracendence type experience which lasted for approximately 45 minutes but felt timeless complete absorption and then a ninth jhana which when I explained to teacher was told that this was nibbana. From writings from other monks such as mahasi sayadaw and from discourses in Goenka long courses this fits quite well.
Does this not fit with suttas?

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:10 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:46 pm
being calm is enough, for insight to be possible
Perhaps include awareness along with calm to allow insight to arise. If this is not already assumed.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:36 pm

Does this not fit with suttas?
Does not.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:07 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:36 pm
Does this not fit with suttas?
Does not.
How so?

It’s tough to discuss this with you when you say read MN 9987.99875 or SN 435.3657 but don’t give any opinions of your own.
Sorry pal but that’s weak. :smile:

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:50 am

Weak is to say something which is opposite to canonical texts. Doing so you are actually trying to say that you are more clever and competent than the Buddha.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:06 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:50 am
Weak is to say something which is opposite to canonical texts. Doing so you are actually trying to say that you are more clever and competent than the Buddha.
No, that’s not weakness it would be a disagreement, You however have yet to make any argument or show through your experience how my statements of actual meditative experience are against the canon or how they differ from your own.

That is weak my friend.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:54 am

Aiming at Nirvana is like hiking Everest.

People do it.

Although they don't do it accidentally.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:11 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:43 pm
it's sort of difficult, but not as difficult as sitting 12 hours
Sitting for 12 hours is just a natural outcome.

This is what arahants tell on the matter:


For seven days I sat in one spot,
absorbed in rapture & bliss.
On the eighth, I stretched out my legs,
having burst the mass
of darkness.



How light my body!
Touched by abundant
rapture & bliss,
—like a cotton tuft
borne on the breeze—
it seems to be floating
—my body!
Whoever said this was already beyond jhanas and coming out of nirodha samapatti, which is not a jhana and doesn't happen within jhanas. It is a letting go of all states.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:13 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 pm
chownah wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:38 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:28 am

Perhaps you might start with what is unreasonable and unfounded in what I posted instead of 'demanding' my analysis in a thread that has nothing to do with the 4NT's. The thread is about jhana and its length of time, etc. If you want to challenge me on something, which you appear to be doing, maybe you should open a separate thread. We all drink our poison. Is it a matter of which one is more poisonous?
I didn't demand.....again you are trying to change the subject from your post which it seems runs counter to the Four Noble Truths....what part of it you ask....pretty much all of it. The general message you are delivering seems to run counter to the Four Noble Truths.

You are obviously wanting to change the subject to me by mischaracterizing me as being demanding and challenging. I'm just discussing your post which is what is done on forums. If you don't want people commenting on you posts or questioning your posts then you probaby shouln't be posting.
chownah
You, otoh, seem to dislike what I post and feel it is not Buddhist or to your liking. I don't know why.
I think you will find that if you read what I post carefully you will see that I explain why I have responded to your post. In the exchange in this thread my replies have been that you are ignoring the issue of the Four Noble Truths which I am raising and that in order to avoid that issue you are trying to change the topic to various attitudes which you attribute to me....attitudes which frankly are just your imaginings. These things are clearly seen by anyone who reads our exchange and gives it some thought.

If you don't want to banter then stop bantering.
chownah

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by auto » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:41 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:51 pm
Ok, what I'm trying to say, is that I'm basing my statements upon what is said by the Buddha. And I don't know what basis your opinions have... maybe just personal preferences.
The person who hears the story will get the message as it happening on spot, and if that person tells the story again it is mirrored from what the person is even when it is same exact words, it will be muddled.

Ananda was a stream entry, and the words were written down. Written down text is not same what is heard as sound. Basically when you read the exact words from a written text you are actually reflect your own sound in your mind.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:42 am

Whoever said this was already beyond jhanas and coming out of nirodha samapatti, which is not a jhana and doesn't happen within jhanas. It is a letting go of all states.
Again you've got it wrong, because "piti" and "sukha" mentioned (in which "meditator" is "absorbed") - are jhanic factors which are present in the 1st and 2nd jhanas. And they end in the 3rd (piti) 4th (sukha) jhanas by the way.

This is why the meaning is: "For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss [of the 1st or 2nd jhanas]".

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